E94: Presuming Competence with DJ Nicholson
School team underestimating your child? Do you ever feel like even you are suprised with what your child can do? Today our guest is talking about "presuming competence" and why this makes so much of a difference for your child's long term future (think going for it in your vision statement!!!)
School team underestimating your child? Do you ever feel like even you are suprised with what your child can do? Today our guest is talking about “presuming competence” and why this makes so much of a difference for your child’s long term future (think going for it in your vision statement!!!)
In this episode we discuss:
1) What presuming competence is
2) The risks of NOT presuming competence for your child
3) Specific examples of how it frequently limits a child’s progress in the schools
4) What you can do as a parent if you want to presume competence through your vision statment, but school is limiting.
Free IEP Process Step-By-Step Guide
Sign up for IEP Bootcamp January 27-29th
Beth 0:00
Have you ever felt like one of the school IEP team members was under estimating your child? Or maybe there’s been some conflict between what they’re reporting they see at school versus what you know your child can achieve at home? Or have you been surprised by your own child with them doing something that you didn’t even think that they could do? I’m so excited to have my guest DJ on today who is a former special education teacher and trainer for teachers inside of the district at the district level. She now has a parent education company where she helps parents understand and advocate for their kids within the schools. She also provides training to districts across the country in how to better support children inside their special education programs. She’s talking today on the podcast about the concept of presuming competence, which just means that you’re assuming that they can do way more than they’ve been able to show you yet. And she also talks about what we can do to encourage and in many ways fast track your child’s growth. By utilizing this strategy. We have a ton of examples of what this actually looks like as well as if you’re getting pushback from inside of the system. What you can better do to convey this concept of presuming confidence to the staff and also how you can change your thinking to make sure that you aren’t limiting the skills of your child as well. So stick with us. We’re talking today with DJ about presuming competence. You are listening to the parent IEP lab, the podcast that helps you get an effective IEP plan for your child so that you can get them supported and learning in school. I’m Beth Liesenfeld, occupational therapist who started to notice trends and parents who got effective IEP s for their kids without having to fight the school. My mission is to help you turn insider knowledge from the school side into effective parent advocacy for your child. The parent IEP lab focuses on preparing you for an upcoming IEP meeting. But also we talk about commonly missed opportunities for parents to get an effective IEP outside of the IEP meeting itself. So let’s dive into today’s guest and think about what we can change and tweak to get the right formula for success for your child to learn and grow at school. Welcome to the lab. If you have an IEP meeting coming up in the next few months, do not wait to snag my new freebie the IEP process step by step guide, it breaks down the IEP in your review process. And it includes what and when you should share your parent input. So you actually feel heard at your meeting, Download your Free copy at WWW dot the IEP or the link is below this podcast in your podcast player as well. I also have a really quick announcement and there’s more information at the end. But we are doing a really special boot camp weekend, January 27, to 29th. So if you are a parent who looks at your child’s IEP and has no idea what you’re looking at, this is for you because by the end of the weekend, you’re going to understand what you’re looking at. And also you will be able to tell if there’s a concern that’s missing from your IEP, and where to focus your advocacy efforts on in 2023 to help your child get fully supported in school. So the link to register is, of course below this podcast in your podcast player. But I’ll have more information at the end of this podcast too. So let’s dive into the interview with DJ. DJ. Welcome to the podcast I’m so we’re excited to talk about presuming competence with you today. But before we get into it, I really want to start with you introducing yourself and what you do. And then we’ll dive into this topic. And I think we probably need to talk about what it is. But why don’t you introduce yourself
Unknown Speaker 3:32
first. Absolutely. And thank you. Thank you, Beth for having me on as a guest. So I’m DJ and I’m an educational coach and I support parents of children with disabilities. And I firmly believe that every child can be an independent and confident learner, we just have to figure out what the right tools are and what the right supports are for in the classroom and at home. So the coaching that I do now really focuses on helping parents figure out why their child is struggling and how we can make learning more engaging, how we can make it more accessible and flexible. So kids can really show what they know and in the educational setting. And I feel like too often in the educational setting, we get stuck in the idea that there’s only one way to learn something. So I feel like I help parents answer the question, you know, how how can my child show what he knows in a way that feels good and feels really authentic. And so just to give your audience a little bit of background? You know, I’m a 27 year veteran educator, I’ve been a coach and a trainer for the last eight years and I’ve seen children really kind of fall through the cracks and be further labeled as being unable to do something simply because, you know, they weren’t given an opportunity and an option to show what they know in a different way. So I’m a firm believer that we need to presume competence for every child and help them along the way to show what they’re learning in school and engage in a way that feels authentic and real for them.
Beth 5:06
Fantastic. So, you know, presuming competence, like I said, in the last question is such a vague sounding phrase, but it totally makes sense. Can we explain it? Can you just kind of break it down for us and explain what presuming competence means?
Unknown Speaker 5:20
Sure. So presuming competence, really, in the simplest form, it’s the belief that every child has the capability to learn and be successful, that we presume that regardless of difference, need disability ability that every child is able to learn and be successful. And I think part of that is, you know, kind of shifting our thinking, and considering what what the barriers are to every child being successful, because that’s really what it what it comes down to is, if we don’t presume that every child is competent, well, there’s some kind of barrier there that’s impeding us from from understanding that every child can be successful. So it really falls into two categories. And I really want to break those down. So people understand what I mean, when I say a barrier. So there’s something that’s called a deficit model. And that’s really and truly the belief that the child is the barrier, that the disability or the learning difference that the child has, is the barrier to learning. And so that, to me, is a really old way of thinking. I don’t like the fact that we still have to have these conversations and 2022. But we do. And so there’s still a lot of consideration out in schools that, you know, it’s it’s the child’s disability that keeps them from learning. And so, you know, when it comes to that kind of model, you know, I mean, I think it’s important that people ask themselves, what are your limiting beliefs? You know, what, what’s keeping you from realizing that every child is capable of learning? And you know, when you think about that term disability, is it a positive experience in your mind? Or is it something that’s always considered negative, so I personally, really would love to get away from the word disability, because everyone has disabilities, they just, they just look different. So I would love to use the term learning differences. So again, with that deficit model, it’s the belief that the child is the deficit, the child is the barrier, and the child and the disability that the child has, is what keeps them from learning. And so that’s a very close minded view of children learning, I think we kind of put a cap on their learning, we keep them in that container of like, well, no, you really can’t do that. Because you have x, y, and z, where the social model really is the consideration that it’s the environment, that’s the barrier. And these are, you know, when we think about barriers in the environment, we can adjust barriers and an in our environment. I mean, whether it’s at home or at school, we can make adjustments to make things better for kids. And so, you know, we want to think about, you know, what are some of the barriers, maybe in the classroom that are keeping children from learning? Is it the fact that there’s not enough assistive technology is the classroom not designed? Is the furniture not arranged in a way where everyone has access to what they need and can engage in their in their best learning? And so I think when when we take into consideration that the environment, is the barrier, environments are really flexible, when you think about it, even at home. I mean, I don’t know about you, but like, I like rearranging furniture, I like changing things around because I can do that in a way that better meets my needs. And so I think it’s the same thing for, you know, children in the classroom, and also for students at home to make adjustments. So even thinking about something as simple as homework, does the homework have to be done, you know, sitting at the table, could it be done someplace else, and kind of making that adjustment to the environment, because when we can take out those environmental barriers, we’re able to make adjustments to learning and that way it’s not, it’s not personal to the child. It’s something external. So if we think of the barriers as external barriers, those environmental classroom, material barriers, it’s much easier to kind of create that that new way of thinking that every child is really truly capable of learning and we can presume that every single child is competent and can grow as a learner when we realize that the barrier Is the environment not the child? I think that’s a huge, a huge piece for people to be able to see those two different ways of looking at barriers. And I think, too, and I think we’ll talk about this later, you know, the the word, that phrase presuming competence gets thrown around a lot. But I think this is such an important conversation to have in order to break it down and understand how this really hurts kids when we when we don’t consider
Beth 10:31
Yeah, so my, my most favorite example, when we’re talking about presumed competence is I first heard this term, because when I first got out of grad school, I worked at a clinic that specifically was about a see devices or alternative augmentative communication devices. So talkers. And, you know, there’s an old school thought that is now outdated, and the research shows that it’s outdated that, you know, you have to demonstrate that you can, you know, see two different items first, and you can do a choice of two first before you can move to a choice of four. And then maybe you can use an iPad with like, six buttons, and then you can use an iPad with like 42 buttons. And so that’s kind of the old way of thinking where Oh, no, they can’t use that high tech device, because they can’t do these first skills first. And then, you know, when you look at how people how we’ve studied how people use AAC devices, it’s a motor planning thing. So every time you’re changing the amount of buttons on that, that device, all of a sudden, they have to start all over again, with learning where the buttons are, because they don’t necessarily see them. They just know where they are on the page, if that makes sense. Absolutely presuming competence piece is like no, no, they don’t have to have any of these prerequisite skills like, no, no, like, we just give them the full thing. And we presume that they can do it, and we teach them how to do it. And that’s where we see the most success. So, you know, obviously that like, if we don’t presume competence in that way, then they’re not getting access to the most robust and most evidence based way for them to communicate. Do you have a couple other examples of if we don’t presume competence in the educational environment? Like what will happen if we limit our kids like, what does that look like?
Unknown Speaker 12:20
So yeah, before I even answer that, I want to go just touch on what you were saying about about AAC devices. And so I think it’s important for our kids that have those AAC devices, that alternative augmentative communication that we get past the idea of, if children can’t talk, then they don’t know. And those those are very, very different things. And I think when we originally, years ago, decades ago, started talking about presuming competence, it was really geared towards towards people that used alternative forms of communication. And, you know, I even see it now when I’m, you know, when I’m working with parents, where I’m at school, it’s that, you know, oh, he doesn’t he doesn’t talk by I understand what he means I understand what he knows. Okay, well, you don’t really because you’re not giving, you’re not giving him an opportunity. And so, you know, just to continue, you know, outside of kids that have AAC devices, I think that, you know, it’s it’s the risk of, you know, assuming that kids with a learning disability or a learning difference or a disability, are not capable of learning. And so what we wind up doing is when we don’t presume competence, we’re kind of making that judgment, that whatever disability they have, is discounting their abilities. And so we tend to put kids that have a disability and IEP, and even you know, our kids that have, you know, a 504 plan that need accommodations for testing, you know, we hear and I use the word we, you know, society hears that, Oh, they’ve got a disability, oh, that’s, oh, that’s too bad. You know, and that’s, it’s, it’s kind of that mindset shift of okay, but that, yes, there are things that are challenging for that student or that group of students, but it doesn’t mean that they’re not capable of learning something in another way. But unfortunately, there’s a large sector of our educational system. That is, there’s one way of doing things. There’s one way of showing what you know, you can take this quiz, you can take this test, you can do this assessment on the computer. And then if, you know, if we’re not getting academic growth or achievement, it’s that assumption of like, well, he just can’t do it and then you know, we wind up setting kids up kids up for failure. And so that being said, there are fantastic educators fantastic schools out there that that are really flexible, and you know, encourage different ways of in Engaging in encourage ways for kids to access learning in a different way. So here’s some examples. So, I worked with a student this was a couple of years ago, I worked with a student that was in the fourth grade. And he was not reading on a fourth grade level, not even close, he was reading at a first grade level, which was fine. I mean, he had a specially designed instruction to work on his targeted skills and kind of fill in some of those gaps. But his teacher, you know, was of the mindset of like, well, he’s autistic. And he’s, he’s a non reader. So I don’t know, I don’t know how to help him understand what we’re doing. She goes, You know, we’re in science, we’re, you know, we’re they’re reading articles about the solar system, they’re having to compare two different texts. He can’t read it. I don’t know what I’m supposed to do. And I said, okay, but you can help him access content. It’s the it’s the presumption that even though he can’t read yet, on his level, there are still other things that you can try to help get him engaged in, in content, it’s almost like having to make that disconnect between. So he’s not reading. So yeah, he can’t learn anything. There’s such there again, like there’s just such a disconnect with that. So I tried to help her understand like, well, you can use, you can show him the the passage on the computer, and have the screen, read it to him. You know, it can be a text to speech, so he can listen to it, you can follow along with it, it will read it to him, and then he is going to get all that information in an auditory format. She has as well, but he needs to read it. I said, do you need him to read it? Or do you need him to understand about the solar system? What’s your outcome? What’s his learning outcome? And she was like, Whoa, yeah, you’re right. I guess I don’t really need him to read it. And I said, right. Do you want to? Do you want to understand what he knows? Do you want him for today? Do you want him to know that he can identify three of the planets in the, you know, the inner ring of the solar system? She’s like, that’s what I want, like, Okay, let’s try this. So again, it goes back, it’s that shifting of thinking like, just because the majority of the other students in the classroom are doing it a certain way, doesn’t mean that there’s other ways of accessing that learning and engaging in in a different way. So I guess another example, is actually just shared this on another social media. And it got a lot of attention, it was a hot topic, and it was the idea of four year olds holding a pencil. And that four year olds have to hold a pencil. And that if they, if they don’t hold a pencil, and if they can’t write their name, with a pencil, by the time they leave pre K, or preschool that they’re behind. And so, you know, there’s, there’s been a lot of chatter about that. I think partly because I’ve stirred the pot a little bit, that really so but we have to presume that a child is going to be able to hold a pencil and write their name, when it’s appropriate for them. So if we presume that it’s, you know, three months, six months, a year from now, we have to assume, presume that that student is going to be able to hold a pencil. So if we presume that and we don’t automatically think while he’s behind, because he’s not doing the same thing as everybody else is doing, when we can take a step back and think, Okay, what do we have to do, in order to support his growth, moving forward to being able to hold a pencil. So you know, I always suggest, you know, we need to add in some activities and tasks that are going to build up hand strength, we want to, you know, get out there on the playground, and we want to climb and swing and pull ourselves up, and, and even in the classroom, you know, engaging with Legos and playdough in the housekeeping area. And if we’re working on math concepts, that we’re putting things in our hands, that we can maybe hook together to build some of that strength, but knowing that all of those, all those skills are leading up to being able to hold a pencil and the presumption that he will be able to hold a pencil and also knowing that if he can hold a pencil, there are other ways around that as well, because holding a pencil is in you know, is indicative of expressive communication. So if a kiddo can’t hold a pencil, well, there’s ways around that too. But I feel like that’s a topic for another time.
Beth 19:43
We could probably talk a long time about that, because there’s, there’s been so many years, it’s been a while now, where, you know, in OT school, we talked about, oh, it’s the right way to hold a pencil. Well, there. There isn’t a right way anymore. There’s a typical way and then there’s so many modifications And so we can make or modifications to the pencil. So like, really what I’m what I’m hearing from you is like, people just need to be more creative in the way that they look at things and define what the actual outcome that they want from that educational lesson or what the point is right? Like, what skill do they need to to know? And really, that that makes a difference, right? That that’s meaningful?
Unknown Speaker 20:25
Oh, absolutely. And I feel like the three words that you know, that come up in my coaching a lot is, is ensuring that learning is accessible, that is engaging, and that it can be flexible. So whether it’s in the classroom or at home, that we break out of that rigid way, that there’s only one one way to do it. And like I said, there are, you know, 1000s of teachers in schools that are that are really, really embracing this, this type of flexible learning, but there’s also a lot that are not so it’s a matter of, you know, building the knowledge building up, you know, skills and strategies on what to do.
Beth 21:07
So I love to shift this a little bit, because I love talking about vision statements for parents. And it’s if somebody’s like, what’s the vision statement, that’s episode 41 of this podcast. But, you know, say that a parent is like really wanting to presume competence for their kid, they write this beautiful vision statement about how what skills they’re going to build, and what education looks for them looks like for them in a couple years. And being that you worked in the system for so long, and so curious that if there’s a mismatch, and the parents are like, yeah, they can totally do this, like this is totally within their wheelhouse that they can they can achieve this vision statement. But they’re getting some pushback from the educators, what are some tips for these parents to be able to break through and really present this presuming competence concept to them from the parents role in that IEP team?
Unknown Speaker 22:03
So first of all, I love the idea of parents writing a vision statement, because parents are the first teachers for children and parents know their children best they know them in a way that that educators don’t. And so I guess, you know, I would encourage parents to ask, ask some probing questions and, you know, get beyond just the Yes, yes, and no questions and taking, you know, what you’re given in the IEP team meeting at face value. And so I think some of the questions to ask are, you know, what are the barriers in the classroom that would keep him from achieving this vision? So it goes back to, you know, looking at looking at those barriers, as you know, it’s an environmental barrier, not a child centered barrier. And so, you know, asking, asking that, how can we adjust things in the classroom? What else can we provide in the classroom, what kind of assistive technology what kind of other, you know, adaptive material can we give him to make learning more accessible, and honestly, so much when I talk about assistive technology, so much of what I talk about is free. So I feel it when a school comes back and says, Oh, we don’t have money for that, like, here’s the great news. You don’t need any money for that. Because there’s so much available, either, you know, online for free, or things that are already in the classroom. And then always, I think it’s important that for parents to understand that if they have a child that is academically below grade level, assistive technology in the classroom, as a learning tool should always be considered. I think that’s hugely important. And I think assistive technology is is underused in the classroom, I think that that’s definitely an area of educational deficit that needs to grow quite a bit. So I feel like if parents knew more about what to ask for in terms of assistive technology, and how their students would maybe engage more authentically, if they use that. I think that’s important for parents to, number one, have information about it ahead of time, before they even go into the meeting, but also asking that question, like, what kind of assistive technology can we use? You know, because that using assistive technology certainly removes some of those environmental barriers.
Beth 24:26
Yeah, I love that. You talked about that. Because I’m I love assistive technology, too. And we have a couple of episodes on the podcast about it as well. And they just wanted to circle back and kind of highlight that. You know, when you talk about like your, your suggestion to really ask more than yes or no questions. I think a lot of times in this kind of more legal IEP system that educators sometimes feel shut down from using their creativity. And I think that’s a theme and everything that you’ve talked about today is that you can tap into the educators creativity because So many educators are so creative in their thinking they love to learn, you know, and and I love that at the beginning, you talked about that creativity, like how can we overcome this this barrier change? Like, what can we change about the environment? But then also, if there’s a mismatch in this vision statement, you’re like, Okay, why do you think that way, and just being curious, and that seems like such a great approach to the IEP team, especially if you’re, if you’re getting some resistance on that vision statement of just starting with curiosity, and seeing what their opinion is, and recruiting their help to try to problem solve, what you can change in that environment to help.
Unknown Speaker 25:38
Right? And I think that when they’re asking probing questions where there needs to be an answer, other than other than yes or no, you know, it’s possible that the IEP team really, you know, has to take time and consider and really think about, well, what, wow, what, what else could we could we do, and I have to say to, you know, just as a sidebar, it really, it’s certainly not a not a fault of educators. With the lack of flexibility and the lack of creativity, it’s, it’s really a deficit of the system. It’s a deficit of the system, and this rigid way that that we’ve come to teach, and I know that it’s different everywhere. I just know, you know, the state that I’m currently residing at, and it’s very, it’s very rigid, and there’s not a lot of wiggle room, especially in the in the in the public system. But you know, teachers are amazing humans, and at the core of who we are, I think, you know, we all want the best for every kiddo. We want to be creative. We want to kind of get in there and get our hands dirty, so to speak. I just wish more, you know, administrators and more directors and superintendents, people that kind of govern the system would give teachers more permission to do that again, because you know, when I was in the classroom, that’s what it was like, it was creative and fun. And we could like, oh, okay, if plan A isn’t working, let’s try Plan B. Let’s try something else.
Beth 27:02
Yeah, amazing. I love that insight. Thank you so much for coming onto the show, and just explaining your expertise. And just diving into this topic. I haven’t hadn’t even thought about talking about presuming competence until you suggested it. And I was like, Oh, we definitely need to talk about that. Because it’s so important. So thank you so much for coming on. And if people are like, let me check out DJs resources and maybe work with you, where would they go to do that.
Unknown Speaker 27:29
So I have a website, it’s www dot inclusive ology.com. And when they go there, they’ll find information about what I do with parents, and also what I do with schools. And there’s information on inclusive ology.com About my coaching program called the the Empowered parent. And I also have for guests that are listening, I have a free 45 minute coaching session where we can tackle an individual problem. Or we can complete an assessment together to kind of get an overall overall idea of what needs your child might have at school. So we want to make sure that, you know, we could complete that assessment to ensure that your child has every opportunity to engage and have access and be and grow in a flexible environment. Oh, what I do have a Facebook group, I have a Facebook group called the collective for parents of students with disabilities. So you can go there and check
Beth 28:22
that out, too. Fantastic. Thank you so much for coming on.
Unknown Speaker 28:25
You’re welcome. Thanks so much for having me on Beth, it was so nice to see you.
Beth 28:30
I love talking with DJ because she’s such a wealth of knowledge. And we actually chatted after we recorded this interview about all of the trends that she’s seeing in her state and all the trends that I’m seeing in my state, as far as IEPs go. So I think her knowledge about how the system works from the inside is so incredibly helpful and helping us all better understand not only what typically happens, but also zooming out in a big picture kind of way to talk about what are we doing on a higher level? And how can we change our mentality and also the staffs mentality, to not limit our kids right to have them really become the best and most skilled people that they can possibly be. While we have the support system, those schools in place. I know a couple parents in the prep course who are frustrated with limited knowledge of the staff in their district. And I just want to mention that if you’re advocating for district training, you may actually want to casually send them deejays information to consider hiring her to do some professional development in your district only if it feels right, and it shouldn’t be a contentious ask. But if you are asking for training for your staff, then I would highly recommend connecting with DJ. So before I go, I have a really quick question for you. How are you supposed to know what to advocate for in 2023 without actually knowing and understanding what is in your child’s IEP? So even some of the IEP s I’ve reviewed for clients lately, are big Balls of text and things are organized in different ways. And there’s data strewn everywhere without like it being a clear, understandable structure. And I’m even trained in what I’m looking at. So if this is you and you’re overwhelmed by the sight of your child’s IEP, you definitely need to sign up for the boot camp happening January 27. Through 29th. We are going to break down that IEP so that you understand what’s in it. And also you feel like you know what’s missing from it. If you have a concern that’s not illustrated in the IEP, there is no better way to start out 2023 Then my understanding your child supports in the IEP and what might be missing. So head over to the IEP lab.com/boot camp to sign up. The link is also below this podcast in your podcast player and I will see you there. Thank you so much for listening this week and we will see you same time, same place next week. Thanks so much.