E90: 4 Levels of Placement with Angelica Medrano
Placement is one of the hardest things to get "right" right now. This is because while special education "isn't a place, it's a service," schools still have a framework for assigning caseloads and having some sort of order for their staff... ...and that leads to support levels where children are encouraged to fall within a certain placement.
Placement is one of the hardest things to get “right” right now. This is because while special education “isn’t a place, it’s a service,” schools still have a framework for assigning caseloads and having some sort of order for their staff…
…and that leads to support levels where children are encouraged to fall within a certain placement.
In this episode with Angelica Medrano, we discuss:
1) What these 4 levels of placment are
2) What determines the placement
3) What that placement looks like
4) Key factors that are so important for parents to know so they can get their child the right support placement!
EDUPrepSpace (Angelica Medrano)
Beth 0:01
placement. It’s one of the hardest things to get right for a child with disability inside the school system as they work right now. And every district and state does it a little bit differently. You might hear some people say we don’t do that here, which is obviously unacceptable. Or you might hear the flip side. So hear other educators similar to me say special education isn’t a location, it’s a service. And that sounds really good in theory, but it’s not really how it works within the schools right now. There are some clear categories of support that schools use to keep track of who gets what caseload as far as teachers go. And then those categories from there can be blurred to fit your child’s unique needs, which is the way it’s supposed to be. It’s supposed to be fully customized and individualized, right. So today, my guest that helps me explain these four levels of support is Angelica Medrano of edu prep space. She’s a former special education teacher and former supervisor of Special Education Programs, who has shifted into more of an advocate and private tutor role. So let’s get into the episode so that you can learn as much from her as I did during this interview. You are listening to the parent IEP lab, the podcast that helps you get an effective IEP plan for your child so that you can get them supported and learning in school. I’m Beth Liesenfeld, occupational therapist who started to notice trends in parents who got effective IEP s for their kids, without having to fight with the school. My mission is to help you turn insider knowledge from the school side into effective parent advocacy for your child. The parent IEP lab is all about how to share your parent input, and you being able to prep for your upcoming meeting without the stress, but also talking about commonly missed opportunities for parents to get an effective IEP outside of the IEP meeting. So let’s dive into today’s guest and think about what we can change and tweak to get the right formula for success for your child to learn and grow at school. Welcome to the lab. If you have an IEP meeting coming up in the next couple months, and you have not snagged my new freebie, which is the IEP process, step by step guide, I would highly encourage you to do so this freebie breaks down the IEP annual review process and includes what and when you should share when you’re sharing your parent input, so that you actually feel heard at your meeting, Download your Free copy at WWW dot the IEP or the link is below this podcast in your podcast player. Now let’s get into the episode. Welcome to this episode of the parent IEP lab Podcast. I’m super excited to have you Angelica because we are talking about different levels of placement. And I think that this is really going to be helpful for a lot of parents. Placement is such like a hard thing for parents to understand also, because different states and different schools do it all differently. So before we get into placement, I just want you to introduce yourself and what you do. And then we’ll jump into talking about placement.
Unknown Speaker 2:57
Well, thank you for having me. So I will go ahead and talk a little bit about what I do. So my name is Angelica. I am the founder of edu prep space. And we are located in Houston, Texas. So a lot of what I will be discussing is primarily geared towards Texas law. I will cover Ida law so that you know it does that is more broad to what parents will be experiencing in their individual, you know, states. But yeah, so So we’ve done advocacy for about five years now we work directly with the families to help support them through the process of navigating that school system. Because we all know it’s very overwhelming. And so that’s what we’ve been doing for the last five years.
Beth 3:46
Fantastic. So I know we’re talking about placement here. And there’s so many like memes and things on social media that talk about special education is not like a room. It’s not supposed to be this like special thing that they get special education only in this particular room. It’s supposed to be customized to every person. But we both know that the system is a little bit broken. But can we start talking about like if this was a more perfect system? What would placements look like? Like what is the perfect situation for a child to be supported where they need to in the schools.
Unknown Speaker 4:24
So in the perfect world, we would consider the needs of the individual child and that placement would look perfect and ideal to their needs. So if a child needed a small group setting, that’s what they would get. If they needed more support in a general education classroom. That’s what they would get. So in the perfect world, we would really specialize that placement to the needs of the child. As you mentioned, we know that that doesn’t always happen.
Beth 4:53
Yeah. And I think you know, some districts do it better than others for they’ll like they’ll have a co teaching The option, right so like the special education teacher is teaching alongside the general education teacher, and like that works really well for a lot of our kids. But when we’re talking about kids, you know, maybe they have their initial evaluation, and then they get placed under a case manager that usually is like some sort of level. So I think you have four levels that we’re going through, which are really typical, like categories of placement. So why don’t you go ahead and lead us through those different placements, and I’ll talk about them.
Unknown Speaker 5:29
So I’m going to start with the general ed setting, because as always, per ID A, we always consider least restrictive environment, which is a general education classroom. So I’m going to start with that placement. So general education classroom, the class that all students are in, for a student with disabilities, that would look like being in the general ed classroom, with either accommodations and supports in the class. So those accommodations are put in place, if they need support, someone will be coming in to provide that support into their classroom, they’re never leaving to receive support, that can either be a special education teacher, many times, it’s a teacher assistant that’s coming in to provide support. There is also that co teach model, which is one of my favorites. That is one thing that I loved doing when I was a teacher, I was a co teacher for several years. And that really was my favorite, because you got to combine Gen Ed with special ed all in real time. So it’s all happening at the same time, you’re able to accommodate, you know, when they need it, how they need it. So that is my one of my favorite type of programs are placements. It, it is hard on some campuses, because it does take a lot of scheduling and staffing. And you also have to be very strategic and how you match teachers. So I think that some campuses sort of shy away from that, because of all the work that’s involved. But it truly does work when it’s done right. So that that is one of my favorite placements. So that would be that first step that gen ed student is in the regular classroom getting all of their supports that they need in the classroom, they’re not leaving level two, you know, and again, this is done in differently in different states, then differently in different districts, even in Texas, would be a a resource setting, or sometimes they call it a content mastery setting where the student is in general education for the majority of the day, and then they are being pulled out for that specialized instruction for part of their day. And that should regardless should be based on the needs of the student, how much that time, how much time they’re being pulled out should be based on what the child needs. So one warning here is that some schools which is have their sort of blanket services that they provide, oh, all students get 30 minutes of, you know, reading 30 minutes of math, that really should also be specific to the needs of that child how much time they actually need, because now you’re removing them from the general education setting, to give them a specialized instruction somewhere else. So that would be level two, that’s also one of the I would say more common type of supports that you get in special education, the child leaves, the gen ed classroom gets their specialized support in a small group setting and then they return to general education. The third one would be the self contained setting where they are providing very specialized instruction, or it’s a very specialized program to meet the needs of a child that maybe that gen ed setting, that large classroom is just not working for them. So they are removed to a special education classroom. So that is made up of entirely students in special education taught by a special education teacher, you should still have some access to general education. So many times those students are leaving for lunch, maybe some of their specials or ancillary classes like PE art, music, those should be in the general education setting because they still need access to the rest of the, you know, the general education curriculum. So that would be that specialized instruction. Some of those programs are geared towards students with cognitive disabilities, students that maybe have some more severe behavior problems that they’re not able to manage or maintain in a gen ed setting, or students that are maybe on the autism spectrum and need a different type of structured classroom. That’s where you would see some of those separate self contained classrooms. And then our the fourth level would be that separate program off of their regular school. So this would be for students that just need more intensive services and what their school is able to provide. Some schools do have this in their districts either actually had experience with districts that have their own separate, specialized program, it is a different school. So these students are now being removed from what we call their home school to a different school. So that is the what we consider the most restrictive because now they’re being not only removed from their general education peers, they’re being removed from the school. So you no longer have access to Gen Ed, you know, even during recess, or PE or music, now they’re being removed to a separate setting where all the students are going to be served under special education. So that’s what we consider the most restrictive. And with all of these levels, again, we still consider the needs of the child. And that should still look very individualized to what they need.
Beth 10:46
Yeah, exactly. And I, I think a lot of like, kind of circling back to your first placement setting. Well, that’s the general education, which is amazing. And then the second level is that resource level. And I think of this sometimes is like, if your child is qualified under SLD, or specific learning disability, a lot of times they’ll do like a standard, like 30 minutes a day. And that just all has to do with the schedule, right. But it’s so interesting that some kids really need that like one on one or the small group setting. And it’s kind of a balance to see what setting works for them. But can we also get into the level three and talking about those specialized programs? And I hate to like say, Oh, this category sometimes gets shuffled into this placement. But that’s kind of the reality of how it happens sometimes. So can we talk about some of those level three placements? And unfortunately, like they’re by category sometimes, but can we throw out a couple of examples, so people know what we’re talking about? Yes. So again,
Unknown Speaker 11:49
it depends on the district. And I’ve had experience with multiple districts where they do it differently. So I can actually speak on both. So there are some districts where, for example, they will have a specialized program that focuses on behaviors. And so they will have more access to behavior therapist or behavior specialist, it’s a smaller classroom, their day is structured a bit different. Because we know in Gen Ed, you know, the teacher is following the curriculum, and there’s a pace that they have to go. And sometimes that is too fast for a student. So they will need a modified type of day. And so in these specialized separate classrooms, they have more, you know, they have the ability to do that they have the ability to slow down the pace of it focus a little more on small groups. And so some districts will have, for example, this behavior program, and you may have students with a variety of disabilities, they may be on the spectrum, they may be under the autism category, they may be under other health impaired for ADHD, they may be a child with an emotional disturbance. And so they’ll sort of just focus on that behavior component, no matter what the eligibility, disability is, other districts will have more specialized programs. So I’ve had districts where they do have a autism classroom, and it is, you know, on the campus, but it is a separate classroom, where students with autism are you know, that they’re the ones that that are qualified to go into this program. And again, that that will be based on the needs of the child, those can look very structured. Maybe they minimize those transitions, because that may be one of the pieces that’s struggle for the students. And so districts do it a little bit differently. But when we’re talking about Ida, you know, eligibility doesn’t drive placement. But many times these districts, that’s how they’re set up. And so the autism classroom is for students with autism, the behavior classroom is for students with behaviors, so that that can be tricky navigating that with the different districts. And at the end of the day, I tell parents, it’s truly looking at what the child needs, and making sure that this program does match their needs, and they are individualizing it for them.
Beth 14:18
Absolutely. And I know that there’s been talk, at least in Colorado, that really there’s a national push to move towards the first situation that you talked about where like, okay, these kids have this particular challenge or the need these specific sets of skills to be supported. And we’re moving towards that model versus the particular eligibility category. And the example is that a lot of kids with traumatic brain injury need a lot of the same supports as somebody with autism might they need those same set of skills, right, that are being integrated, but then a lot of districts that are set up with the quote unquote, autism classroom, they totally have the skills To support and teach people with traumatic brain injury, how to gain these skills, but then they’re excluded from that placement, because there’s a checklist of entry. And so they don’t click that autism box. So there’s like this national push to make it more problem centered or like, like a skill, a skill set that they’re needing centered, instead of being this like, label centered thing. But in a lot of those smaller districts, I feel like that’s going to be the case for a very long time.
Unknown Speaker 15:28
Yes, I agree. And, and my, my experience with some of these districts is that they are moving to that more, I guess we can call it inclusive type of special education classroom where they’re not looking at eligibility, they’re looking at needs, and so then they’re focusing on that piece of it. Because I agree, there are students that may not have that eligibility of autism, but the structure and the way the class is set up, that’s what they need. So it truly is, it’s good to hear that, that that’s what they’re moving to, and I’m seeing it as well. And hopefully that you know, more and more districts will start making that move towards that more inclusive type of support, where they’re focusing on what does a child need? Not just this is what are you know, this is the program, and this is who we serve under that program?
Beth 16:21
Yeah, absolutely. I love I love that you’re saying that too, because that’s my hope, too. So let’s kind of circle back and talk about that fourth placement that you’re talking about where the district says we don’t have the supports right here to provide the support or the skill building that your child needs. And so they start looking for other placements? Can we talk about kind of that situation of a parent being told that they don’t have the right placement there, and also, some different things that happen in in looking for those different placements? Yes,
Unknown Speaker 16:55
so actually, I have several cases happening right now with this particular issue, where the what the school district has or what the what the homeschool has is not appropriate for the students who are having to look for a more specialized program. And again, that can be two things, you know, some districts have their own specialized separate campuses where they provide this. And then we have districts that will have to contract out to private, you know, agencies or private institutions that are providing these type of services. And that process, it is lengthy, with most of the districts because they are also being very careful and ensuring that we are doing everything we can at the home campus before we’re looking at removing a child completely from their home campus. So that can take some time. When I am involved, I am very thorough in looking at all options have we explored every single thing that the district has to bring into the home campus before we start looking at removing a child. So it can be a pretty lengthy process, especially when we’re looking at districts that don’t have the program and they’re having to contract out? Because now you’re working with a completely different entity outside of the public school district. And those can be quite costly for school districts. So that does take some time. But you know, it is, if the child needs it, then that’s what the child needs. And, you know, I know and, you know, my background was working in districts, I know that the cost that comes with it, and there is some sometimes that hesitation, from school districts to push for that or to agree to that. But it’s really using the data to show that this child is not making progress with everything that we’ve tried. And so in order to make progress, they’re going to need something different, something very specialized. And then that’s when we start looking at those outside of the district placements or those off campus placements.
Beth 18:56
Yeah. So there’s been a couple of situations, you know, I’ve I’ve worked in separate schools, like I’ve been contracted for them, where they were that private entity, and so they never went into general education that wasn’t wasn’t the thing. And then I’ve also worked in a situation where a kid was changed from one school to another school in the same district, though. And I’m wondering if this is your experience to that normally, parents have the right or the opportunity to tour that facility so that they can actually meet the people there and see what the setting looks like. Has that been the same in your experience, too? Yes.
Unknown Speaker 19:35
So part of Ida law that does discuss placement does say that the people that are looking at determining placement for a child with a disability, that decision should be made by a group of persons including the parents. So, you know, as always, parents are a big part of the IEP committee, so parents have to also agree to that placement. One of the things that I do with the fam Lisa, I work with when we’re looking at exploring things off of the home campus. I always like to set up tours or, you know, just having if a tour can’t be set up having the parents speak to the principal or whoever’s in charge of the program. Typically, we’re able to schedule those tours because I tell parents, I want you to be completely comfortable with the place that you’re sending your child, the only way to know that is by actually going to see the setting, asking questions, making sure that you’re comfortable. So that is something that I really focus on making sure parents are comfortable and okay with what we are deciding. Because there have been situations where a parent says, you know, I’ve seen this setting, that is not going to work for my child, I am not comfortable setting them there that and that is the parents absolute right to disagree with that type of placement. And then you you typically the districts will seek a second option for the parents.
Beth 20:54
Yeah, I’m wondering, as we kind of start to wrap up, if we can brainstorm a couple of different questions or things to look for, when parents are trying to give their input about placement, can we think about what different aspects they should look for if they are doing a tour of a specific setting? Or what questions they should ask, as they’re kind of considering this placement and trying to like, think about if it’s a good placement for their kid or not.
Unknown Speaker 21:22
So one thing that I think is helpful for parents is to have a list of questions before they go, because obviously, when we show up to, you know, to these type of places, there’s so much that’s going on, and they’re probably feeding you so much information, you know, we tend to forget what what our questions were. So having a list ahead of time is a great way to make sure that all of your concerns are addressed. And I would say to parents list every concern that you have no matter what it is, and also very specifically to your child, if your child has, for example, a medical condition, let’s just say not, you know, but apart from their disability, let’s say the child has asthma, you want to make sure they have a nurse on campus, you know, some of these smaller districts with these specialized programs may not have that. So you would want to ask, how would that look? If my child does have the need to see the nurse? How would that look at someone being sent over from somewhere else? Well, that might be a concern. So any questions that are very specific to the needs of your child? And it’s always good to pose those scenario questions. If my child does have, for example, a tantrum, how would that look here? How will this school support my child? And I think it’s good to ask those type of questions, because their feedback will be very telling of, of the environment of that campus, right? You know, a lot of times when parents start asking questions, and you’re sort of getting very short answers, or maybe yes or no answers, then parents sort of get the feeling of, well, maybe there’s not going to be as much communication as I would like, versus if they go to a campus where they are being given all of these answers. And being tired through these types of scenarios. Well, this is what we have in place. And, you know, this is the plan that we would have. And then you get a sense of that communication. Because I really think at the end of the day, that communication is key. If that, you know, having that communication between the school and the parents, that’s ultimately going to be the best, because there has to be collaboration between home and school. So I really tell parents in that tour, it’s more of that gut feeling, right? How does it feel? Does it feel like like you’re comfortable there and your child would be comfortable. These are, you know, this is a place that you know, will communicate with you versus if a parent goes to a place where I’ve had parents tell me, it felt very cold, it felt not nurturing, it didn’t feel welcoming. And so then that’s a red flag, you know, I wouldn’t want to send my child there. So I tell parents, you know, go with that gut feeling. And you know, did it feel like a good place to you? And I think that’s, again, one of the important things and ask all the questions. I mean, I have parents that will tell me, Well, I don’t know if I should ask this or maybe that’s a silly question. There are no silly questions, right? Ask every question that you can think of. And I feel that that’s going to be the only way a parent gets a good sense of where they’re going to be sending their child.
Beth 24:09
Oh my gosh, I love those so much. And then going back to your list of challengers, which I absolutely love. That’s what we talked about in the eligibility podcast series too, is like, make sure that you have your own list of your child’s challenges that are important to you, and then go in there. So then another example too, that I’ve seen actually in some quote unquote, autism programs, is some kids will have really high sensory sensitivities, right? And then, when they go in to get support from those autism classrooms, some people stem and make noise when they stem and that’s kind of the place that they stem. So a good question to ask is like, if they need a quiet place, where will they go right or are asked those resource questions. And again, that answer that you get back from them is going to be so telling where if you’re like, if they’re like, oh, they just need to deal with it like it’s how this room is or if They’re like, Oh yeah, we have this option and this option and this option. If it’s becoming a problem, then it’s so helpful just to kind of, kind of poke them a little bit and see how they respond right to see what they say back to you. But I love that you say like the list of challenges, and also asking all the questions, I think that’s just a beautiful, beautiful thing.
Unknown Speaker 25:20
I think it’s also important for parents to share their feedback in terms of what they see at home, or things that they’ve tried. Because that’s also another thing that I’ve noticed, some parents will tell me what home I try this, and it works. But they’ve never thought to share it with the school because they, I think sometimes parents feel like it’s two separate things, right home is one and school is different. But many times those type of techniques that parents are using at home, then teachers are like, Oh, let me try that. And then it ends up working, because then we have that, you know, consistency of home and school. So I always tell parents, your input is very valuable, never feel like what you have to say is not important. It’s your child, you’re the expert, you you’ve known them their entire you know, their entire life, you know them better than the school does. So always make sure that you give your feedback, you know, whatever it is, whatever you feel is working. And again, even if it is challenges that you’re seeing, those are always important to address.
Beth 26:14
Absolutely. And the last question that I want to ask you, as we wrap up is just, I feel like there’s so much pressure on parents and school teams like that placement is such a big decision. And then it feels like a permanent decision. So can we talk about like, we always talk about on the podcast, like nothing is permanent, the plan needs to be able to change regardless of if you have a meeting come up. But let’s talk about kind of how long should you kind of trust in that placement and see if it’s going to work? And then at what point do you say, hey, this isn’t working, we need to meet again to discuss what we can do differently.
Unknown Speaker 26:51
So one thing that we do sometimes in the IEP meetings is when we’re discussing placement and parents are agreeing to change a placement. We can also discuss, okay, when can we come back? How long? You know, if a parent says, Can I try this for, you know, nine weeks or 12 weeks? Can we come back in 12 weeks, I like to do that during the meeting, so that it’s not left up in the air in terms of oh, we’ll come back and meet in a few weeks. If you discuss it during the meeting. It’s a little more formalized. And then there is that follow up right on part of the school, oh, parent wanted to regroup and talk about progress in nine to 12 weeks. So that’s one thing that I like for parents to do go ahead and address your concern during the meeting so that you have now formally put in that request of I want to make sure we come back and discuss progress. And again, that progress monitoring while they’re in these placements. Progress monitoring is important. Are they making progress? Are you seeing changes? Yes, we know that sometimes this can take some time. And we also know that sometimes when we make changes, things get a little worse in the beginning before they get better. But beyond that part, if a parent feels like we’ve tried this for several months, and I’m not seeing changes, I tell parents call another meeting, like you it is your right, call another meeting at anytime that you have concerns, I really feel that that progress monitoring is the key. If the child is making progress, then we know this program is working. You know, sometimes it is slow. But as long as it’s slow and steady, we’re okay. But if we’re stalled, and we’re seeing weeks and weeks, and now it’s turning into months, and the parents don’t feel like there is progress, we’re not seeing that data to back it up, then absolutely. You know, it’s important to go back to make sure that, you know, there’s not other things that need to be added or is there other supports that we need to be looking at even in a separate placement. And I know that parents sometimes are very hesitant about that sort of your your child has moved and that’s it right. That’s forever. We know that it’s not permanent. But the reality is, sometimes it is, you know, some sometimes students are moved and they’re no longer on the district’s mind. Because now the you know, it’s they’re not facing these issues on their home campus. And that’s unfortunate. That’s not the way it should happen. But the reality is, it does happen sometimes. So I think it’s again, you know, parents have to use their rights and, and as a parent say, I’m concerned and I want to, you know, discuss these, these very valid concerns in an in a meeting. So I think it’s ultimately going to come down to that progress. And the data, you know, is the data supporting that the child is making that progress? If not go back to the IEP team and discuss, you know, what can be done to make some changes.
Beth 29:42
That’s perfect advice. I love it. So thank you so much for coming on to the podcast and talking to us about placement. If parents are listening to this and they want to connect with you. They want to figure out what your services are and maybe even work with you. How would they go about finding you?
Unknown Speaker 29:56
So the easiest way to find us is through our social media. So on Facebook or Instagram, they can find us at edu prep space, and also our website which is edu prep space.com. And we are here to answer any questions we always tell families feel free to reach out to us. And we’re happy to speak to any family. Again we are in Texas but you know Ida is Ida law is Ida law. And we can always refer out to other states as well. We do make connections with other advocates in other states, so we’re happy to help them find someone.
Beth 30:30
Perfect. Thank you so much for coming on today.
Unknown Speaker 30:33
Thank you for having me.
Beth 30:34
I hope you enjoyed my interview with Angelica. She’s such a wealth of knowledge, and I love that she has a different level experience with overseeing programs inside the schools and now helps parents just like you advocate. So I hope you will check out her resources as well. Just a quick reminder to go ahead and download your IEP process step by step guide that is a free guide for you. That is definitely going to be helpful as you approach the coming IEP season in the spring if you haven’t had yours already. And of course that can be helpful for you as you come into next year, as well. If you need any help with looking at placements with blurring those lines so that your child’s placement can uniquely fit your individual child’s needs, please happen to the Facebook group. The link to join is below this podcast in your podcast player. Or you can go to the IEP lab.com/podcast And you can click the little link to join the Facebook group. And I hope to see you in there as well. Thank you so much for listening, and I’ll see you same time, same place next week. Thanks so much.