E148: Section 504 Plans
It's time we talk about 504's... Because this under-rated and often misunderstood learning plan is pretty amazing when it works and it's being implented! ...but pretty useless if it's not. Topics we cover today are: 1) 504's vs IEP (let's review the difference!) 2) Can you have BOTH an IEP & 504?
It’s time we talk about 504’s…
Because this under-rated and often misunderstood learning plan is pretty amazing when it works and it’s being implented!
…but pretty useless if it’s not.
Topics we cover today are:
1) 504’s vs IEP (let’s review the difference!)
2) Can you have BOTH an IEP & 504? (hint: I see this answered incorrectly alll the time!)
3) Common issues with 504’s (ex: it not being implemented).
FREE Accommodations 101 Guide: https://theieplab.com/accommodations
E147: Section 504 Plans
Beth: [00:00:00] More and more people in my community, meaning my free Facebook group, and in the Parent Advocacy Club, and also in one on one power hours, are asking about 504s, and today, we are diving in. So if you’re wondering if your child can have both an 504, if you’re wondering how a child qualifies for a 504, what it can include, and what to do if it’s not being implemented, stay tuned.
Beth: This one’s for you. We’re talking all about 504s today.
Beth: You
Beth: are listening to The Parent IEP Lab, the podcast that helps you become an informed parent advocate to get your child supported and learning in school. I’m Beth Liesenfeld, occupational therapist, passionate about leveling the school support information playing field for parent advocates using my experience in over 400 IEP and 504 meetings.
Beth: My mission of the Parent IEP Lab podcast and also the online courses, workshops, membership, and summit of the IEP Lab is to break down barriers to being able to advocate with collaboration. On the podcast, we provide you insider information from the school side so you can take [00:01:00] that context and create informed, thoughtful questions.
Beth: of your school team to get your child supported and it actually works. So let’s dive into the topic today of 504s and think about what we can change and tweak to get the right formula for success for your child to learn and grow at school. Welcome to the lab.
Beth: Accommodations are ways that the environment The task or the way that your child demonstrates their knowledge is changed just a little bit so that they can access their curriculum. So if you’re wondering, what do I ask for in my accommodations, or if you’re wondering what the difference between accommodations and modifications are, then go ahead and go over to theieplab.
Beth: com slash accommodations for your accommodations one on one freebie. The link for the freebie is in the description of this podcast, so snag your copy today. Now, let’s get into the episode. Now when I initially started the IEP Lab business, the business advisors that I had followed and listened to on [00:02:00] podcasts myself said to niche down as much as possible and really focus on the people that you really wanted to serve.
Beth: So I did. In the beginning, I was like, Oh, I want to help all parents. And then I was like, okay, well, I think I have to pick one. They’re encouraging me to pick one. So. So I chose to focus a lot on talking about IEPs specifically. Well, after more than two years of being in business, I’ve discovered my passion isn’t really about the documentation or the process, although I absolutely love, love, love teaching these things in an accessible way.
Beth: But it’s truly about helping parents advocate for their children in the schools, regardless of what plan they are in, or even if they have a plan at all. As evidenced by a parent who just a couple months ago asked me if the ultimate parent IEP prep course was for her, even though they didn’t have an IEP yet.
Beth: And I just wanted to share this quote with you because it, it made me tear up three times when I opened up her email and even delayed me getting back to her because I just, [00:03:00] Could not put into words how much this hits exactly what I’m trying to do on the podcast. So she allowed me to share this quote with you.
Beth: So I’m going to share it right now. So she said, your course provided me with all of the information I needed about IEP process and what our rights are. It helps me be very clear and hold the district accountable for the gaps in the last eight years while also not attacking the people who are trying to help us now.
Beth: I even had a long conversation with the district superintendent and outlined all of the ways that are to e kiddo. was missed in elementary and middle school and it last felt heard. So if this is you, if you’re struggling, if you’re saying, well, well, we don’t really have an IEP yet, Beth, like, can you still help me?
Beth: Absolutely. I went through so many more evaluations than those 400 IEP meetings that I ended up at, And I was frequently called in to help kids that didn’t even have a plan at all, or they were considering 504s, I sat in on those too. So I don’t want my business name to stop you from reaching out for help because I really, really want to help you no [00:04:00] matter what plan you have.
Beth: So in the coming months, you’ll see me open up my topics on the podcast as well, including this one when we’re going to talk about 504s. Will I rename the business? Or the podcast. I don’t think I can do that again. I think I’m good with the IEP lab and we can go with that. So let’s dive into 504s. So first of all, we’ve had a separate episode about this, uh, but the difference between 504s and IEPs. So 504s, they’re both legal plans, right? IEPs are set forth by the IDEA law, and actually 504s are as well.
Beth: It’s called Section 504. And 504s are very interesting because they actually, if you’ve you’ve listened to the college episode that we have, then you will notice that 504s actually apply to college as well. Now, they’re different parts of the law. IEPs are very much more specifically laid out in the law on time limits and how long they have to get back to you and when they have to to [00:05:00] have that annual meeting within a calendar year.
Beth: All of these things are very, very incredibly structured. You have to qualify for an IEP under one of the 13 categories that are set out by that federal law. Each state can have a checklist that’s slightly different for that qualification, but you have to meet those standards in order to qualify and you have to go through the evaluation process.
Beth: Now, 504s. are different because they’re supposed to be a little bit easier to access. Now, in the beginning, I think it was just common practice. You know how laws are like laws and then every state interprets the different laws. Well, many, many, many states and districts were interpreting
Beth: the Section 504 law to be said as a child has to have a disability to be able to get a 504 plan. And the 504 plans don’t have necessarily the services. We’re going to talk about that in a little bit. They can, but they don’t typically have services or goals. They are typically just [00:06:00] accommodations. They don’t even really have a present level section.
Beth: So IEPs, it’s like this amazing funnel that I’ve talked about so many times, But if you haven’t heard about it, join the membership, because we have a whole month devoted to talking about the sections of the IEPs and how they fit together. Um, but IEPs really have a flow from gathering information, to boiling that down to the priorities, and talking about making goals, and then the service providers that are going to service those goals, and then accommodations to help them access the classroom, and then at least a restrictive environment or placement as well.
Beth: And so IEPs are just really exciting. Well, 504s, you don’t have to have an evaluation to get one. You used to, quote unquote, have to have a diagnosis, most likely from a medical professional. So if you had ADHD or an anxiety diagnosed by your doctor, then you could get a 504 plan. the updated interpretation of the 504 is that you do not have to have a diagnosed disability. So if your child is struggling, [00:07:00] you don’t have an official diagnosis anywhere, then it is okay. You should still be able to get a Section 504 plan.
Beth: So, to boil it down and put it in one sentence, Section 504, different part of the law, you can get accommodations and sometimes services. And then IEPs are the whole rigmarole. You get present levels and goals and services and accommodations all together, right?
Beth: Okay, so let’s talk about this. Because I’ve seen this pop up in the Facebook group several times. Can your child have both an 504? And I hate when people are so black and white about this. People get very angry about this. They’re like, no, you cannot have an 504 together because the 504 accommodation should just be in the IEP.
Beth: And while most of the time this is true, let me tell you a little bit of a story. We had a first grader who had an IEP and a 504 and the parents actually requested [00:08:00] this to be like this and the district was like, yeah, sure, that’s fine. What happened was she had diabetes and so the 504 plan was for her disability of having diabetes.
Beth: So this had accommodations like the nurse would check her blood sugar. Every so often, I forget what it was, every 30 minutes or whatever it said, um, she would be allowed to have snacks at any time of the day, you know, she could be pulled out for a break for any reason, you know, to go to the nurse’s office to get juice.
Beth: If her blood sugar was low, she could lay down like all of these accommodations were specifically about her diabetes. And then she also had an IEP. So this particular situation, she was young enough that she was under the developmentally delayed category. And so they really didn’t have a diagnosis for her.
Beth: They didn’t really know what was going on. We suspected that she was autistic. We kind of suspected that she had ADHD. We weren’t really sure though.
Beth: She was just too young for us to be able to [00:09:00] tease it apart and really see what the disability was. So we just supported her regardless. And provided her services, had goals, had the accommodations in there, but those accommodations were all about her learning accommodations.
Beth: She didn’t have any of the diabetic accommodations in her IEP. And this was because the parents were kind of worried, like, well, what if she doesn’t qualify for an IEP anymore? Because every three years you have to requalify. And that goes away. We still want something without a lag time in place for her diabetes.
Beth: And so they really wanted it to be separate. So you will see this sometimes when you have epilepsy, although that can kind of, um, mishmash together into, you know, learning disabilities and things like that. It can, but it doesn’t always, right? So you have some of these health issues that you might want to have separate and that’s okay.
Beth: So the answer is yes, you can absolutely have an IEP and a 504. Um, Does it get confusing for teachers? I don’t know. That’s something to consider. It didn’t really seem like an issue in this case, [00:10:00] to have both because everybody kind of understood what the accommodations were for the diabetes and then also what her IEP was for as well.
Beth: So the answer is yes. The next topic we’re going to dive into is qualification for 504s. And this is so funny and this is why I love doing this podcast because I did not know until I was full time in the schools for five full years. I never knew that you could go through the evaluation process specifically for 504.
Beth: Now, it happens a lot of the time that if you request a special education evaluation and You get to that eligibility meeting and they’re like, well, they don’t meet the criteria for the checklist to be able to qualify for an IEP, but we still feel like they need accommodation, so let’s do a 504 plan.
Beth: And that happens all the time. I should probably do a whole other episode on that because there’s some kind of tricky things with that situation, but we’re not [00:11:00] going to get into that at this moment, but there was this interesting situation where, and I loved our special education director.
Beth: I loved working for him. He was so incredibly intelligent. He loved the law. So a lot of my knowledge comes directly from his explanations because he really, worked closely with the legal team of the school, and he didn’t mind sharing everything about that to us. Now, me being on ten different teams, I was always pretty much on the trickiest situations, because those were like the kids who needed the most support, or you know, we were testing the situation, or we needed all hands on deck, and so I got pulled into all of these kind of tricky legally kind of situations.
Beth: And so that’s why I feel like I know enough to kind of tackle some of these situations because I’ve seen a lot of them. So, fifth year, right, of being an OT in schools, and we were trying to figure out these accommodations. We’re like, Okay
Beth: parents are asking for a 504 and the parent and [00:12:00] the teacher met with the coordinator for 504s, which again, we should talk about as well because They’re not necessarily people who are educated in special education. Like, for us, it was the counselor. Well, the counselor doesn’t really know much about disabilities or the IEP process even, because they’re not part of the special education team.
Beth: And so they were in charge of the 504s. Well, often we would get pulled in to kind of problem solve. So, what happened in this situation is they pulled together and they said, Okay, we’re going to write a 504. And then they said, What accommodations do we need? And they did not know. So what they did was they said, okay, well, let’s ask, I think it was the speech therapist and me as the OT got pulled in to say, Hey, can you see this kid a couple of times and figure out what accommodations would be helpful?
Beth: And I’m pretty sure I was looking at handwriting for this particular kid. And so I kind of looked at it. I worked with him a couple of times, did a couple of activities. You know, kind of did a very, very informal assessment observation with him. And, and what happened was [00:13:00] I’m like, Oh man, I feel like I need more information.
Beth: So we pulled in our social education director. We said, Hey, here’s the situation. We can’t really quite figure out what to do. And the special education director, in his very nonchalant but very direct way, he said, just go ahead and do an evaluation. And I was like, wait, we can do that?
Beth: You’re kidding. We can actually do that? And he was like, uh, yeah. And I’m like, where can I do it inside of the IEP software? And he kind of told me where to… Create one in our software, and I didn’t even know it was there. So yes, you can actually have an evaluation for a 504. And me in particular, I hate doing anything without an evaluation.
Beth: How can we even figure out what accommodations are going to work for a kid? Unless the parent is like, Hey, this works really well at home. Hey, they’re an outside outpatient therapy and this really works well. Hey, they’re saying this is the specific challenge. And so can we problem solve this one real quick?
Samson Q2U Microphone: That is super helpful if you know those things that are [00:14:00] working for them, but if you’re kind of drawing a blank or you don’t know what you can ask for, then the evaluation really is the key, because how can you start without having a really good picture of how your child is in the schools, what it looks like, what their day to day looks like, what an observation looks like, because that should be part of the evaluation as well.
Samson Q2U Microphone: And then you can start from that information to have a really good guess of what those accommodations will be. So you’re not just starting from scratch and just being like, Oh, well, I don’t know what to ask for. So what do I do? That evaluation is key. So just know that you can have an evaluation to get a 504 plan.
Samson Q2U Microphone: Now, that kind of leads into what can I ask for? And this is the reason why accommodations and 504s are so difficult is because accommodations, you can literally ask for anything. So, accommodations, again, are ways that the environment or the task is altered so that your child can access it .
Samson Q2U Microphone: So these are things like preferred seating, whether they need it close to the teacher so that they [00:15:00] pay attention, whether they need it at the back of the room so that they have room to stand up or pace the room or do whatever they need to do. Or that is next to a paraprofessional or whatever that preferency even looks like it should be.
Samson Q2U Microphone: Yes, it should be that specific with what you’re asking for. But really what you’re looking for is, Okay, will Well, what is the actual issue? You have to start with the challenge first and really diving deep on that challenge to get it really specific in order to get the right accommodations to ask for.
Samson Q2U Microphone: So this is really a bigger question. This is something that we have addressed in the Parent Advocacy Club. So if you’re looking for support for any of this 504 stuff, for any of the advocacy and the process for figuring out what to ask for. Please, please, please consider joining the Parent Advocacy Club.
Samson Q2U Microphone: It is only 24 a month, and you get support all month long. In addition to the training and all of those things, like, you can bring up whatever question you want when it [00:16:00] comes to the Q& As and the Voxer support that I’m going to be adding this next month, too. So, really, if you’re having difficulty with what to ask for, like, come on, Let me help you and let me figure it out through coming through the Parent Advocacy Club.
Samson Q2U Microphone: Okay, so the last thing that we’re going to talk about is probably the biggest gripe that I’ve ever seen, from parents, especially with 504s. And, and I don’t know… Well, I do know. I do know why it is harder to enforce a 504 and actually know if they’re doing it versus an IEP. And that is because the case manager for an IEP is typically the one that is giving the most services to your child.
Samson Q2U Microphone: Now, if that’s a special education teacher, then that special education teacher is like, uh, yeah, we’re using the accommodations that’s in the IEP and they’re You know, hopefully talking to the general education teachers about what they should be providing as far as accommodations. But, as I mentioned in the beginning, 504 coordinators aren’t [00:17:00] necessarily working with your kid at all.
Samson Q2U Microphone: And you might not even be getting services through that 504. So the person responsible for implementing those accommodations falls to the general education teacher. And I’m going to be honest in saying that general education teachers do not have a basis and understanding. In general, some of them do, right?
Samson Q2U Microphone: But most of their programs do not even address social education. They leave that up to the special education programs. So if you have a general education teacher who is supposed to be implementing these accommodations, they might not understand why they have to provide those accommodations. They might be written in vague language.
Samson Q2U Microphone: They don’t understand them. So really, if things aren’t being implemented, or if you wonder if they are, Parent Teacher Conferences is the most perfect place to bring this up, but you can bring it up all year round. Where you sit down with a general education teacher and you say, Hey,
Samson Q2U Microphone: are, are these accommodations working? Are these [00:18:00] easy to implement for you? You know, let’s drill down the challenges that you’re seeing in the classroom and really figure out what the best way is. And this is why general education teachers are supposed to be at the 504 meetings because they are the people that are there and They are the people that are responsible for implementing those, yet they do not have the education to understand why they’re doing it,
Samson Q2U Microphone: so, if you’re in the situation where they’re not being implemented, or you wonder if they are, and you’re getting these vague answers from the school about, oh yeah, they’re implementing them but you really don’t think that they are, then it’s time to have a face to face conversation with the general education teacher.
Samson Q2U Microphone: And yes, middle school and high school levels, it means that you’re going to have a lot of conversations with a lot of different teachers, unless you can help, unless your child can help you narrow it down with he’s really struggling in science,
Samson Q2U Microphone: okay, I’m gonna prioritize talking to the science teacher, right? Like, again, narrow down your challenge so that you make it easier for yourself to actually be effective. Again, if you [00:19:00] are still having issues, then it’s time to go up the ladder above the general education teacher and start going to the administration.
Samson Q2U Microphone: Now, again, this really depends on your situation. It really depends on what admin you’re going to, whether that’s a special education admin. or that’s the building admin. So this is again where I can help you if you come into the parent advocacy club and ask your questions there. So not necessarily trying to sell you on the parent advocacy club, but these situations in particular, the 504s, not having a plan yet, the implementation stuff, it is all this culturally relevant thing that varies from school to school and situation to situation.
Samson Q2U Microphone: So that’s why I love having the club is because we can have everybody in there and I can support you all in all of your different situations, but then I get to know you because once you join, then of course we’re going to connect with you multiple times a month and I get to know your story and I’m like, oh, okay, yeah, I have some context here so I can jump in and help you with this new issue or whatever comes up.
Samson Q2U Microphone: So again, if you have any questions about [00:20:00] 504s, if you want an opinion on if you should ask for a special education evaluation, if you feel like you might need more, we can absolutely talk about what should be in your request letter if you want to go ahead and join the Parent Advocacy Club. So you can check out that at the IUPLAB.
Samson Q2U Microphone: com slash club, I’ll just drop that link below this podcast as well. So, thank you so much for tuning in. Be sure to grab that freebie if you’re like, no, I’m not ready for the club yet, but you want that accommodations one on one freebie.
Samson Q2U Microphone: Make sure that you’re looking for that link below this podcast and your podcast player as well. And I will see you same time, same place next week. Thanks so much.