E142: Behavior from a Trauma/Adoptive Lens with Angie Grandt
Behavior has many different underlying layers -- and one often overlooked is trauma. Join me in learning from Angie Grandt, an adoption coach as she takes us through her advocacy journey and how to advocate for looking at that layer underneith behavior!
Behavior has many different underlying layers — and one often overlooked is trauma. Join me in learning from Angie Grandt, an adoption coach as she takes us through her advocacy journey and how to advocate for looking at that layer underneith behavior!
Angie’s website: https://www.connectedparentswithangie.com/
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E142: Adoption, Trauma & IEP Advocacy with Angie Grandt
Samson Q2U Microphone: [00:00:00] When talking about adoption and advocacy, I have a very personal soft spot for this topic. My husband’s family adopted four kids from Russia who are now very much adults, and the trauma they experienced when they were so young still pops up from time to time. So I’m excited to have adoption parenting coach on the show today, Angie Grant, to talk about advocacy in the schools When there is behavior rooted in trauma, stick with me because we’re talking all about behavior from a trauma perspective today.
You are listening to the Parent IEP Lab, the podcast that helps you become an informed parent advocate to get your child supported and learning in school. I’m Beth Liesenfeld, occupational therapist, passionate about leveling the IEP information playing field for parent advocates. My mission of the Parent IEP Lab podcast and also the online courses, workshops, and summit of the IEP Lab is to break down barriers to being able to advocate with collaboration, as it is the most effective approach to advocacy I saw in over 400 meetings.
We do this by [00:01:00] providing you insider information from the school side so that you have context to create informed, thoughtful questions of your IEP team to have a clear voice in your child’s plan. So let’s dive into the topic of behavior rooted in trauma today and think about what we can change and tweak to get the right formula for success for your child to learn and grow at school.
Welcome to the lab.
Just a couple quick reminders. Today is the last day to sign up for Reframe Parenting’s Kickstart School Bundle, where you can download any of 30 free resources including my school support orientation guide and get the where to start flowchart if you’re still looking for support for your child but you’re not quite sure of the options that you have and what to ask for from who of the school staff.
Use the link below which is theieplab. com slash bundle to get in and get your resources downloaded to start the year off right. Also, registration is open for Penny Williams is free school struggle summit. Penny is the host of the beautifully complex podcast, which I’ve been honored to be a [00:02:00] guest on her show previously.
And I’m also really excited to be speaking in the summit on inclusion and how to define and advocate for your ideal version of inclusion. I’m also really excited to be next to some amazing speakers, including Seth Perler on executive functioning and Greg Santucci, who is a really amazing occupational therapist and also working inside the schools to help us understand how to advocate better as well. So use the link in this podcast description to sign up before we kick it off September 28th. Now let’s get into the show.
Beth: Hey, Angie. I’m so excited to have you here and we’re going to talk a lot about your experience and advocacy and when things get a little bit more complicated as far as advocacy goes. So will you start us off by just introducing yourself and your connection to IEPs and
Angie: we’ll go from there.
Absolutely. So thank you so much for having me here, Beth. So I’m Angie Grant. I am the adoption coach. So I work with parents [00:03:00] who, in particular, um, adoptive parents, but parents who are really struggling with behaviors and they don’t know where else to turn. So, um, so I really helped them create peace in their home.
It’s, um, it just lights me up. So as far as my connection with IEPs, I’ve actually had a connection on both ends because I am a mom of a child who he himself has needed an IEP. My son is adopted. And, um, so, you know, he’s needed some support along that path. We actually started with a 504 and moved into an IEP.
And then Yeah, and then also on the professional end, I have worked in the autism field for a couple of decades, as well as being a speech language pathologist, and so I had experience, you know, during my practicums, working in the schools, writing the IEPs, but then also on the autism end, um, working in early intervention, helping the transition to IEPs, and then working with kids who have active IEPs and [00:04:00] participating in those meetings.
So from I feel like I’ve experienced IEPs from every possible angle.
Beth: Yeah, you really have. And I love that you said that you started out with a 504 and then got transferred to an IEP. So can you tell us a little bit about what facilitated that change from the 504 to the IEP?
Angie: Yeah. So, um, A little bit of background about my son.
So he was five when, when he joined our family and when he first joined our family, he was on an IEP. He was in early childhood receiving speech and language services, but only speech and language. However, you know, due to his early couple of years and the trauma he had experienced, there were a lot of behavioral concerns, but they weren’t addressed in his IEP.
And so. Our first experience was that he was dismissed from his IEP once he met his speech and language goals. Um, and so, about a year went past where school was just kind of scrambling, like, what do [00:05:00] we do with all these behaviors? So I ended up working closely with the school counselor and psychologist to, okay, let’s get something in place to really support him.
And so they really felt like starting with a 504, a plan to just have some intervention strategies readily available that everybody that You know, worked with him in the schools, knew how to respond to certain things. So we did that for, gosh, I don’t even remember, maybe a year or two. And it, um, it wasn’t quite enough.
You know, they, they were using the strategies. They weren’t goal driven. And I think that’s where kind of that shift happened was that, you know, they were like, it was as if they were like trying to put out little fires, but they didn’t really have a big goal other than putting out little fires. So when then, yeah, so, you know, um, On the professional end, I had experienced all kinds of different 504s, you know, some, you know, related to reading or some related to maybe sensory supports where my sons were specific to behavioral supports.
And [00:06:00] so, so yeah, so I really advocated to, you know, can we please evaluate him for an IEP and I did get a little pushback at first, honestly, that, there are no educational delays. It’s not, you know, he’s doing, um, he’s keeping up in class, but the behavior were really impacting him socially, impacting his ability to learn as much as, you know, he’s such a bright young man and his behaviors really were getting in the way.
So, so I really did advocate and so they ended up doing, um, some pretty thorough testing and Implemented an IP and it made a world of difference because then everybody was on the same page working towards the same goal. So yeah, that part was great.
Beth: Yeah. And I’m really curious because of course, everybody talks about behavior, but there’s always like a layer underneath that right of like.
But why? Why are they having behavior? They don’t have it anywhere else. So did you feel like the, the testing was sufficient to figure out a little bit about why he was having those
Angie: behaviors? Oh man, that’s a big question. [00:07:00] Um, I feel like in, um, I feel like given the resources that they had, we’re in such a tiny town.
I mean, um, our school is so small that it’s early childhood through 12th grade, all in one building. Yeah. Yeah, real small. So, and I don’t know how many of your listeners are in teeny districts, but, um, you know, so resources, there just aren’t a lot, right? Um, I even think the, I don’t know, I don’t want to misspeak, but, you know, some of the people that were on his team were split between different districts because, you know, there were in our district one or two days a week.
And so, you know, really limited resources. So I think that they did the best with what they had available to them and, and separately. You know, I had my son actively involved in, you know, quite a bit of therapy and outside services, and I did also work hard to make sure that our outside services were, um, in communication with what was happening in his IEP, which was, um, which was so necessary to help him [00:08:00] be successful across the board.
Yeah.
Beth: Oh, I love that you talk about that. Because yes, I was, my first job was actually in a co op. So it was what you’re talking about. So I was, you know, two days a week in this district and three days a week in this district. And that’s how it went. So I, I know that there’s a lot out there, but also we have listeners in huge districts too, which is its own advocacy challenges, different set of challenges, but very much as well.
So I’m really curious to ask you, you know, I, I think you fostered before you adopted, and I’m wondering if we can dive into that just a little bit of, did you feel like you had any additional hoops to jump through when you were trying to advocate as a foster or adoptive mom versus a bio mom?
Angie: Oh, you know, I don’t, I don’t think so.
I mean, I think, I think being part of that foster care world, at least where, where I live here, I feel like the school just so [00:09:00] quickly jumped on to like, okay, we’ve got these kids coming into our district, everybody, here’s the plan. You know, I feel like, um, with the foster kiddos, I think that that went so smoothly and everybody kind of knew the drill, even though they probably don’t, you know, because of their size, they probably don’t get a ton of them, but I feel like they were very, yeah.
Receptive good. Um, and with my son, you know, like I said, when he first came into the district, he had an IEP. Um, I feel like I personally got a little pushback, but I think it was because Um, I think it was because like how the first IP was written, it was just about speech. And so then from the perspective of like, okay, speech is better.
So all is well, right. You know, but he is a whole human with, you know, lots of things going on and, and I, um, man, I was just such a strong advocate to get whatever I could in place to support him. Just knowing that he came from a really tricky place and things weren’t going to magically be better being in a.
You know, a stable home. So I [00:10:00] do, I feel like I maybe had to, um, advocate a little bit more as mom than I did as foster mom. And also, you know, in the foster care situation, you know, it’s not like the kids just come to our home and then I have to do everything, right? They also come with caseworkers and other people that are really doing a lot of the advocating too.
But yeah, I feel like. It was kind of like part of the package with foster care. It went smoothly. Oh, I’m
Beth: so glad that you feel like it went smoothly. I know when we’ve had meetings that involve like foster care or maybe um, child birth protective services is involved. Sometimes there’s an LEA, which is like an additional person that you kind of have to go through and sometimes you have signing rights on the educational rights and sometimes you don’t.
So you were coordinating a lot of people. But it sounds like everybody was pretty cooperative and open to, to communicating with each other.
Angie: Yeah. Yeah. I think that it went relatively well,
Beth: so especially when we’re talking about behaviors, and this is, I think more [00:11:00] in your wheelhouse as we kind of turn back to your expertise, but you know, especially when you talk about behaviors and the school is seeing a lot of behaviors.
Can you talk about the emotional part of your journey as an advocate and also having behaviors involved and you know, I hear a lot from my community of like, Oh, it’s really hard to like not take things personally or people are judging my parenting because of these behaviors. Can you talk a little bit about that emotional side of
Angie: behaviors?
Um, you know, I don’t, um, I don’t think that I did a ton of the like. Worrying about what other people think. I think that’s just part of my personality, right? Like they can judge all they want, but they are not raising my child. So, um, but I can just say that the emotional piece about the whole process, you know, um, from.
You know, me seeing his mom, seeing my son’s struggle in school and not having a plan in place,[00:12:00] that kind of like brought out the mama bear in me in that, I was getting so many calls, so many emails about this happened and that happened. And, you know, and so then I’m saying like, okay, let’s get a plan in place.
Okay, let’s get a plan in place. I really did have to dig my heels in, in advocating to get the plan in place. And I know that just emotionally, that was really draining because, you know, I was, I was personally feeling the frustration of getting all the calls, getting all the emails and then feeling like, you know, but he’s with you for eight hours a day.
I can’t, I can’t be there to help throughout the day I need you guys to figure out how to best support him and, and at the same time, too, I think one of the biggest struggles that myself and a lot of adoptive parents or foster parents feel is, when you really understand trauma and its impact on behaviors, it’s especially challenging when you’re working with or living with.
or loving a child [00:13:00] who has trauma but also displays these really challenging behaviors that when taking a step outside of this conversation, you know, when a kiddo has experienced trauma, has attachment difficulties, there’s a part of their brain that is always Afraid of connection, always afraid of trusting adults, which then comes out in sometimes really unusual or scary behaviors designed to push you away, right?
Not that it’s an actual thought in their head, but there’s this kind of fear response that’s like, you are, I can’t trust adults to take good care of me. And so there’s part of their brain that’s always pushing the adults away. And so back to your question, is that as mom or, you know, what I would hear from the school is so much focus on the behaviors themselves without going back to that question, which you had kind of asked early on, like, okay, so all of these behaviors are happening, but what, what’s really underneath them?
You know, what are we missing? [00:14:00] And I do think as time passed throughout school, I think myself included, we lost sight of, you know, like I knew that the behaviors were from trauma. And school knew the behaviors were from trauma, but it’s really easy to get caught up in the like, okay, but X, Y, and Z are happening.
We need to have a consequence. Other kids are watching these things happen. We need to, you know, we can’t just let him steal from other kids and let it be, or we can’t just let him. You know, hurt other kids and let it be. And so, you know, that balance of like being a compassionate mom who understands his trauma and understanding that the school has to have parameters, but then also advocating to say like, I, I get it, right.
These behaviors are unacceptable, but our solution can’t just be punishment. You know, that to me, that was the biggest emotional struggle of all of it was. Trying to find where that balance is, right, between like what I know is right and what I know my [00:15:00] son needs and understanding what the school have, you know, they have to have rules.
And, you know, recently with really scary things happening at schools, the rules have gotten stricter. And then you have kids who have experienced trauma who are trying to push everybody away who are like, Oh, that’s an interesting idea. Maybe I’ll threaten something or do something scary because that’ll really push them away.
It, um, it is a really tricky spot to be in as mom and, and I imagine being the school professionals who get it. Yes. Yes. So is,
Beth: is there anything, I mean, I’m sure people, some people are like, yes, that’s my kid. That’s my kid. That’s my kid. So. Is there anything you advocated for or that the school eventually figured out?
Like, was there somebody who, um, took time to build rapport with him or, you know, what did you advocate for to bring this trauma perspective to the forefront and not forget about it?
Angie: Oh, well, I ended up, um, I was advocating so [00:16:00] much probably, um, And some people’s in the school’s perspective too much, you know, but I just kept reminding them like, but you know, this is about his trauma.
This is about his trauma. This is about his trauma. And so I ended up getting invited in to talk to the district and it was open to the school board and the district to talk about trauma. So I ended up, you know, giving this presentation about trauma. About, you know, what it looks like and then how we really should be responding and, and to take a step back and, you know, stop looking so much at like, this is the behavior in front of me, what’s our behavior intervention, but instead saying like, okay, there are behaviors that’s a Clear signal that something’s going on inside of him.
So how can we respond differently? And so, yeah, I ended up, it was terrifying, but, but he, you know, I really genuinely think my son needed me to do that, not only for him, but for other kids who’ve been in similar [00:17:00] situations, so, um, But what ended up coming out of that was different responses to behaviors instead of looking at everything as something that needed a consequence or even needed a phone call to mom, you know, right?
Like, part of me wanted to, you know, know how he was doing, but like, Are other kids also doing some of these things? Are their moms getting a call, you know, every day, sometimes three times a day, you know, so helping them understand that, you know, instead of treating everything like a behavior, treat it as a sign that he’s feeling scared or hurt or, you know, feeling something big and scary.
Oh my
Beth: gosh, that’s so much insight packed into that answer. I love it. Oh my gosh. Okay. So there’s additional training and the cool thing about, the work that I do is I get to see IEPs from all over. Some states in particular have a certain spot on the IEP that says, does the team need any [00:18:00] additional training?
And that would have been just like a perfect segue, but I’ve only seen it in one state. There’s so many other states that, that don’t have that like right on the IEP, right? Um, so training is definitely helpful. And then, you know, I’ve heard people try to advocate for, um, like a calm down space or somebody’s office that they can go to.
Um, And then of course, like somebody who is actually going to take time and talk with them and understand them. Right. So, yeah, yeah.
Angie: I could always tell when I would go to meetings at school at the school. This wasn’t as clear with my biological daughter, but when I would go to meetings about my son, it was so clear which teachers.
Got it and understood and it came across in their compassion and the way that they would talk about him. They would light up like, Oh my gosh, you would not believe the coolest thing he did this week. Or, [00:19:00] you know, you could just hear it in their voice where some people just were so hyper focused on behaviors.
And then they saw him as not a likable kid in it. Um, I, I hated it. Yeah. It was one of the things I actually addressed at that training was just talking about. You know, these things come across to me as mom, imagine how it feels to him and he’s going to respond in kind, right? You know, if you don’t like him, he knows.
And, um, part of, part of trauma is that, um, many men when kids experience trauma, I mean, it happens to adults too, but, um, it can create this hyper vigilance. And which can make that individual that much more in tune to others, which is fascinating. But my son, man, like he knows what you’re thinking before you think it because of his hypervigilance.
And so he, he could walk into a room and I’m sure just pick out quickly who likes me and who doesn’t.
Yes,
Beth: I completely agree. And we’ve talked about that a little bit before, too, because sometimes [00:20:00] when somebody needs a paraprofessional, sometimes that’s an amazing match. Sometimes that is a terrible match.
And so sometimes you might have to advocate for a different person match. And hopefully that person is recognizing that it’s not a good match either. Because usually it’s, it’s two sided. It’s like, oh, I’m so nervous or I don’t know what to do, or. I don’t understand or they’re advocating for at least more training, if not a switch of people for a while.
But yes, I agree that, um, a lot of people know a lot of people now, and we even know when we click with somebody or if we don’t. So yeah. Is there anything else that you would like to, um, tell parents who are kind of working with the system, trying to work with the system about behaviors when it’s rooted in mental health difficulties, any other tips or things that you would like to
Angie: share?
Well, a [00:21:00] couple of things. I would go into IEPs or meetings or, you know, even just phone calls related to my son is that I knew that I had a ton of training about trauma and attachment. And I knew that I am his biggest advocate.
Probably nobody else is going to be as big of an advocate as I am for him. And so, you know, I would go into those meetings just reminding myself that, you know, when I’m maybe getting pushback from somebody on the team, or maybe somebody isn’t responding the way I expect that I, you know, I had to just keep reminding myself, like, it’s, it isn’t their job to be his biggest advocate.
It’s mine. And so then You know, to take that role of how can I help them better understand or how can I help them be a little bit more compassionate because I, you know, I know and trust that people work in education because they want to help genuinely. Nobody’s in it for the money or in it for the fame or anything else like that.
You know, it [00:22:00] really genuinely is to, to help. And I think some, sometimes people just don’t know how. So, you know, going to those meetings with an open mind to advocate and help others, instead of going in there feeling like you’re a victim to how other people are talking about your child or, you know, responding, right?
Go in there to try to help instead of to, I think some people go in there like, I’m going to tell them how it is, you know, but that doesn’t really help your relationship with the school. Man, our kids are there eight hours a day, five days a week. We better be on the same page about things. Yes. Oh, it’s so true.
It’s so true. That I think is kind of general across all kids, but then, you know, thinking about, you know, mental health in, in general is that, um, I also know that there’s more and more training coming out in the education field, but it’s, it is still new. And, you know, I know that teachers are first and foremost trained how to teach.
And [00:23:00] so, you know, helping to increase that understanding about the impact of mental health and behaviors and that behaviors. Um, are really a form of communication, no matter what it is, whether you’re talking about a toddler who’s just learning words and they’re, you know, spitting or hitting you, or you’re talking about a 10 year old who has experienced a lot of trauma and, you know, today they’re acting out and we can’t just say like, what happened today?
You know what, you know, what happened this morning? Or, you know, did somebody say something at recess? Oftentimes it’s not about that at all. And it’s about something that we might not even figure out or. Or have an answer to, but to, but we can always have that compassion and ask, ask ourselves those questions about, I see the behaviors it’s telling me that they’re scared.
What can I, what, what do I have the power to do today? So that would be my other, I guess, big piece of advice on both ends for parents to share with their team, [00:24:00] but also just for. Educators to constantly be asking and to take a step back from the behaviors and really ask, you know, what can I do to help today?
Mm hmm. Oh, that’s so
Beth: beautiful. Okay. Um, gosh, thank you so much for coming on and for sharing your expertise. I know that there’s going to be some parents who would like to reach out to you and perhaps work with you. Do you want to tell us a little bit about what you have as offering and where they can
Angie: find you?
Yeah, so everything that I offer is on my website, which is ConnectedParentsWithAngie. com. So that’s like the easiest way to find me. But if you want to just kind of get a taste, I do have this great resource. It’s my top four tips for building strong connections. So Beth, you said you’ll put the link below, but that will get you on my email list, which then, you know, I send out.
I, I do not spam people. I do not have time for that, but, um, I really use my email to stay connected, share resources as you know, as I come across them and then remind about the trainings that I [00:25:00] do every week. So, um, check out my top four tips. It’ll get you on my email list. I promise. I will not spam you.
And then check out my website. I have some great resources on there and just more information about me and how I can help you. I do, do one on one coaching with parents who are struggling. So if that’s you, or if you know somebody who’s just like, man, I’ve tried everything. It’s just not working.
You know, um, the parents that come to me oftentimes say they’re like at the end of their rope and they just like ready to throw in the towel. So, um, I don’t want parents to get to that point before they call though. Yes.
Beth: Yes. But you’re a great resource. Okay. So I’ll put those links, um, in this podcast, while you’re in your podcast player, and then also in the show notes and that link is below this podcast as well.
So thank you so much for coming on Angie. I really appreciate it.
Angie: Absolutely. Thanks so much for having me. This was fun. Of course.
Samson Q2U Microphone-1: You know, when I was re listening to Angie’s interview just now when I was editing it, I just had these thoughts of like, oh my gosh, [00:26:00] she has some amazing personality characteristics that I bet that she helps parents build in her coaching. And so much of that has to do with being persistent. Right. Um, having good boundaries, knowing what the school responsibilities are and supporting them in doing that, but also saying, Hey, this is your responsibility to be able to look deeper at behavior and be trauma informed therapists and teachers.
And also just, being so informed herself, right. And being resilient So if you are interested in connecting with Angie remember that her links to her freebie and also her website is below this podcast in the podcast description And also in the show notes as well.
So a couple quick reminders before we wrap up. Don’t forget to sign up for Penny Williams’s Summit. That is at the end of this month in September and I’m so excited to see some of these talks. It’s going to be so good. And Penny is just so amazing at keeping it real.
Like, there’s [00:27:00] not really a lot of fluff. It’s just so helpful to listen to her and to have her perspective. And also I didn’t mention this at the beginning of the podcast, but we did an additional assistive technologies workshop together. So if you upgrade to the fast pass, which means that you have all of the time to actually digest all of the resources that she has in the summit.
And you also get some additional perks with that FastPass as well, but you will also see the chance to add on a very discounted assistive technology workshop that Penny and I did together. So, that was super fun. We shared our screens, we demonstrated how they worked, some of the most common tools to address writing and reading and organization within the school setting.
So check that out because it’s really, really amazing. It’s going to be really helpful. And we already have a bunch of signups for it. So it’s really, really fun. Um, and then also last day to sign up for the kickstart bundle. If you don’t know what a bundle is, it’s you sign up for the bundle and then you get taken to this amazing.
organized page. Scotty did such a good job. It’s so much work to set up these pages, but [00:28:00] you have all of the information from everybody who contributed to the bundle it’s all stuff that would normally be you would have to pay for. Like it’s not freebies.
It’s much, much more than that. So you can log in and you can choose from all of these different providers in one place. And it’s just so nice to like see everybody else’s resources in there. I downloaded a couple of them myself and yeah, it’s just really exciting. So go to the IEP lab. com slash bundle
and that link is also in the description. There’s a lot of, a lot of links in the description today. Cause I have a lot of resources for you today, which is amazing. So thank you so much for listening, and I will see you same time, same place next week. Thanks so much.