E135: Untangling Behavior with CPS through a Neurodiversity Affirming Lens with Santana Ficken
CPS (Collaboritive Proactive Solutions) is a model that takes it a step deeper than "behavior" to find support needs or difficulties, and is also a model that teaches problem solving and buiding rapport. Santana Ficken is a mental health provider and autustic adult that works as an advocate with Minasota NEAT, Minnesota Neurodivergent Education, Advocacy, and Therapy Services (MnNEAT), a non-profit group that specialized in supporting neurodivergent people to be included across the livespan.
CPS (Collaboritive Proactive Solutions) is a model that takes it a step deeper than “behavior” to find support needs or difficulties, and is also a model that teaches problem solving and buiding rapport.
Santana Ficken is a mental health provider and autustic adult that works as an advocate with Minasota NEAT, Minnesota Neurodivergent Education, Advocacy, and Therapy Services (MnNEAT), a non-profit group that specialized in supporting neurodivergent people to be included across the livespan.
In this episode we cover:
1) What the CPS model is and why it’s worth it to invest time into learning
2) The “lens change” that can help get to the root of difficulties your child is experiencing (rather than everyone focusing on behavior)
3) How Santanna has used the model within the context of IEP advoacy
4) How the CPS method can help with identifyng accommodations and goals for your child
Minnasota NEAT: https://mnneat.org/
Minnasota NEAT email: [email protected]
Download the Podcast Listening Guide: https://TheIEPLab.com/listen
E135: Using the CPS Model to Advocate
Samson Q2U Microphone: [00:00:00] If you have a child that has quote unquote behaviors or any mental health or trauma difficulties, this episode is going to be super helpful for you, but I must warn you, this is somewhat of an advanced episode as we’re talking about a method you may not have heard of. It’s called CPS or collaborative proactive solutions by Dr.
Ross Green. Don’t worry though. We explain the basics in this episode, as well as how this method helps deepen your connection with your child, figure out why they’re having behaviors, avoid more meltdowns at home, teach them self advocacy and problem solving skills, and also how to apply this method into the schools so that you can advocate more effectively with them as well.
It’s a pretty amazing method, but I just want to give you a heads up that it is kind of a deeper topic for us as far as the IEP lab goes. So stick with me because we’re talking about the CPS method and how our guest Santana has used it in her own advocacy work
. [00:01:00] You are listening to the Parent IEP Lab, the podcast that helps you become an informed parent advocate to get your child supported and learning in school.
I’m Beth Linsenfeld, occupational therapist, passionate about leveling the IEP information playing field for parent advocates just like you. My mission of the Parent IEP Lab podcast and also the online courses, workshops, and summit of the IEP Lab is to break down barriers to being able to advocate with collaboration as it is the most effective approach to advocacy I saw in over 400 IEP meetings.
We do this by providing you insider information from the school side so that you have context for what’s happening to create informed, thoughtful questions of your IEP team to have a clearer voice in your child’s plan. So let’s dive into the topic today and think about what we can change and tweak to get the right formula for success for your child to learn and grow at school.
Welcome to the lab.
We are in full back to school mode here at the IEP Lab. And if you are looking to brush up on [00:02:00] episodes of the Parent IEP Lab podcast that you may have missed, and focus on the episodes that are going to help you most in your situation, then please go to theieplab. com slash listen to download your free podcast playlist.
listening guide. We have categories like new to IEPs and for specific categories of needs like neurodivergent and learning disabilities. So click on over to get your copy. The link is also in the description of this podcast, or it is just theieplab. com slash listen. Now let’s get into the episode.
Beth: Oh my gosh, I’m so excited to finally talk about CPS and Santana I am so excited to have you on the podcast because we’ve been doing a lot of talking, um, about everything that you’ve been able to accomplish this past year and what you’ve learned. And so welcome to the podcast. I’m so excited to have you.
Um, I would love to start with just you introducing yourself and your connections to disability and education and
Santanna: advocacy. [00:03:00] Sweet. So, um, I’m Santiana Ficken. I live in Minnesota. I am a mental health practitioner and it’s actually really interesting because Minnesota I feel is unique in this area of what a mental health practitioner You too.
can be. So I have the status from 6, 000 hours of supervised experience. I do not have a degree. However, you can become a mental health practitioner with a four year degree to a related field. Um, I provide what’s called CTSS and that stands for Child Therapeutic Services and Supports. It is a community based program.
So I work in home. I can work in schools when they I attend. Every IEP meeting, have direct communication with school teams. I talk with any like case manager, outpatient therapist, anybody who is providing other direct care, I [00:04:00] consult with and help guide of like, okay, so like. This is what’s going on in school.
What can you do to help me help them? How can we promote, you know, lasting and sustainable stabilization? Because that’s the focus of our program is stabilization. Outside of CTSS, I’m also a board member for a non profit organization
It’s a mouthful. I have lived experience. I am a late diagnosed autistic. I also have ADHD and other disabilities and I’m neurodivergent in other ways as well. Um, I actually have a history in applied behavioral analysis. I used to be a behavior therapist and I was online and somebody called me out of just like, you don’t speak for us.
ABA is considered abuse within the autistic community. And I’m like, what do you mean I’m abusing autistic children? Oh my God. So I [00:05:00] learned about the neurodiversity. Paradigm shift and I left ABA and I got into the position that I am now and really just changed my entire perspective and that’s kind of how I realized that I was autistic.
Oh, that is
Beth: quite the story and all, all from somebody just calling you out.
Santanna: Oh my gosh. And that’s kind of how the advocacy piece really started. I had some clients that were being recommended to ABA and I’m like. Can I talk to the case manager? Please let’s let’s figure out other solutions and different supports than that route and really sharing my lived experience from that side to advocate against that and then seeing behaviorism in the schools and really just trying to be like can we support these kiddos in different ways and that’s really how I jumped into the advocacy world is by that journey.[00:06:00]
Oh,
Beth: my gosh. That’s amazing. Yeah. And, and we connected really, I mean, you’re in the Facebook group. And so I think you found the podcast and then we connected a lot in the Facebook group. And, you know, we got to talking about CPS and Dr. Ross Greene and so that’s why I’m having you on the podcast to talk about just all of this.
amazing things that you are doing to address, you know, the behavior to get people more supported in schools. And so I would love to start this, this is going to be kind of a bigger topic, but can we start with just defining CPS from Dr. Rasgreen and what it is? And then we’re going to talk about like how you’ve used it
Santanna: to advocate.
Absolutely. So first I need to give a disclaimer that I am not a representative with lives in the balance. Um, I also use CPS a little bit differently than Ross Green talks about because I am practicing from a [00:07:00] neurodivergent lived experience and understanding. I’m also practicing from a trauma sensitive, not trauma informed, but trauma and trauma sensitive perspective.
Um, and CPS is a really great tool in conjunction with those different perspectives, especially whenever you’re advocating and trying to support a kiddo.
CPS itself stands for the collaborative and proactive solutions model, and it really is exactly what that stands for. Collaborative, we’re working with the kiddo proactively before the difficulties are coming up, and we’re coming up with solutions.
in order to help them with their difficulties. We focus on what’s called unsolved problems. An unsolved problem is any expectation that is not being met. That’s what we’re really focusing on. We don’t focus on behavior. The motto or mantra, if you will, is kids do well [00:08:00] if they can.
Because if they could do well, they would do well. We’re asking ourselves things like, why would they not want to do well? Really, why wouldn’t a kid not want to do well? because I mean, really, like, we’re all out here just trying our best with all of the barriers that we face, whether we’re disabled, neurotypical, neurodivergent, anything.
Like, everybody has barriers and difficulties in trying to do things. Like, we’re not like, yes, I’m just gonna, you know, I like being on the struggle bus. I don’t need to get off anywhere. I’ll just stay here forever.
Beth: Yeah. Agreed. And, and I love too, that when you get into the resources and you can go to lives in the balance.
org, um, for resources on exploring CPS as well, but what I love about, they have a Facebook group. And so when issues come up with like adults too, they just flip it around and they say adults do well when they can too. And I, I have seen this [00:09:00] too, where it’s like, You know, we, we get all angry at the school team, but by adopting this new perspective about the adults as well as the kids and everybody involved, um, sometimes it’s harder, but I think in the end, we realize that people are doing well when they can, and that just makes such a huge difference in what we say and what we do to try to solve these unsolved
Santanna: problems. Right. I think it also has a big difference, you know, so like within CPS, like we refer to it as what’s called. Um, and that refers to what’s called lagging skills.
Why isn’t a kid meeting an expectation? Because they lag the skills to do so. And that helps you as a parent, as an advocate, like, you know, you’re saying to, you know, bring kind of like that perspective. Linge change into these IEP meetings. It [00:10:00] helps regulate your own emotions. Because you’re able to like go into that meeting and like ask for something and if the school says no it’s kind of like okay well what’s up I know that you have your own barriers instead of like feeling like they’re attacking you and saying like no because like they might not like you it’s just like oh well they have their own barriers too they’re just trying to do.
What they can
Beth: yeah, and I, I’ve never heard anybody put it that way, but that’s exactly. Yeah, that’s exactly it. Oh, my gosh. So amazing. Okay. So hopefully people get a little bit of a guide about CPS from that explanation. But of course, there’s. There’s a lot more that Santana and I can’t get in and still keep this podcast, you know, relatively short, right?
Um, the one thing I do want to address about CPS though, is because when I mentioned CPS in coaching calls and, you know, I bring it up as like an option or, you know, [00:11:00] a strategy for advocacy from parents who have looked into it, the responses. That’s a lot of work to define these unsolved problems and to make sure that you have your lenses on correctly and, and that regulating emotions piece too is a lot of work.
So what do you say to this? Being a lot of work or maybe a parent who is at the beginning stages of learning about CPS, what can you tell them about the time that you get invested into the CPS? And then is that worth it?
Santanna: 100% worth it. Even if you just have the lens change that CPS provides, that’s worth it in, in, in of itself.
It is a lot of work, especially in the beginning. Because you’re being asked to change your entire approach to parenting and supporting. Like, you’re taking that [00:12:00] and flipping it on its back and throwing it out the window. And it’s overwhelming. And a lot of the times, too, like, we have to think about, like, we parent typically in the ways that we were parented.
And our difficult emotions that are showing up when we’re parenting are typically our previous experiences from our childhoods of our own emotions that are also showing up. So that makes it even more difficult because you’re trying to change that own narrative within your attachment with your child.
And that’s really hard. And now you’re trying this entirely like a different approach that is changing everything that like all of your own neural pathways are used to. And I think that that’s where it gets the most overwhelming is that you’re trying to change your own habits in neural pathways simultaneously as supporting
Beth: I agree. And I, and I think too, it’s like even having that grace. To again, reflect back on yourself and [00:13:00] saying, I’m doing the best that I can, I’m trying to learn this new method. I know it’s going to be worth it in the end, but I messed up and now I just need to, like, move on and learn from it, right?
Because I think we internalize, like, I’m not being perfect about this. I’m not switching quick enough or, you know, they’re still blowing up or it’s a process, right? It’s a process.
Santanna: So that this is a really great intro into kind of like the three plans, because this really goes into what you’re saying. So within CPS, we have three plans.
We have plan A, plan B, and plan C. Plan A is any adult imposed solution for an unsolved problem. And that’s our typical behaviorism, rewards and consequences. But it can also include logical solutions to what you, the adult, we refer to that as our adult theories. Things is getting in the way of that unsolved problem.
So any adult imposed solution is plan A. We, we try to stay as far [00:14:00] away from plan A as possible within CPS, but whenever I talk about how I use it with schools, that’s a little flexible. Then we have plan C. I’m skipping plan B to get to plan C, because plan C, I think, is one of the most difficult things for parents and schools to follow, because we are temporarily dropping expectations.
While we solve other unsolved problems. So if you know that brushing teeth at night time is going to be difficult. And that’s going to lead into a meltdown. You just don’t have that expectation that they’re going to brush their teeth before bed. Because you’re focusing on a different unsolved problem first before you get there.
And that is so important for stabilization. And that’s what makes things really hard. Because it’s like, I feel like I’m plan C ing all the time. Especially if your kid has, um, a [00:15:00] PDA profile. So pathological demand avoidance. Um, because you are really plan seeing every expectation all day, every day for months, it feels like, and that’s okay.
They’re not, they’re not meeting the expectation anyway. Yeah.
Beth: Yeah. Well, in a perfect example of this, like in inside of the schools is like some of those rules that, um, That I hate within school, so they would be the expectations like being quiet in the hallway or staying in line or sitting in your seat during instruction or, you know, any of those like, Oh, like we need to do this because we’re in the school environment and those are so hard sometimes and sometimes yes, like they’re going to make noise down the hallway and that just has to be okay.
Santanna: Right? Are you aware of, um, how Green talks [00:16:00] about the lucky kids and the unlucky kids? Oh, no, I don’t think so. So he categorizes every kid into two categories. We have lucky kids and unlucky kids. The lucky kids, so I’m going to back up two more steps. So we talk about behaviors communication. A more affirming understanding is behavior is an indicator.
Because if you have like disinhibition behaviors, like that’s not communicating anything. Like a sneeze is my example I use for disinhibition. Are you choosing to sneeze? No, do you want to sneeze and spill your coffee all over you? No, that’s not really communicating anything except for my body had a reaction to something.
But if we’re looking at behavior as an indicator, right? Behavior is an indicator that they are having difficulty meeting an expectation. And the lucky kids have the indicators that cultivate a empathetic response from adults. [00:17:00] So, that’s complaining, crying, um, And just like having that ability really to verbalize and have those quote unquote, you know, judge judged as appropriate emotional responses when they’re having a difficult time.
Yeah, the unlucky kids are the ones whose indicators are. Exploding, basically, you’re going into meltdowns, you’re not turning in your homework, you are screaming, you’re yelling, you’re, you’re doing all of the things that do not cultivate an empathetic response that you’re also having a difficult time.
There’s also a group of unlucky kids that I don’t think is talked about enough and those are the ones that completely shut down. Those are the ones who are compliant. Those are our, you know, I’m autistic and those are most of us in the autistic community that just learned how to mask. I will sit here in my [00:18:00] discomfort and comply so I can survive my school day.
And those are the group of the unlucky kids.
I just needed to
Beth: sit with that for a second. Yeah. And, and I think that can be really frustrating. I’m thinking about parents who have children with that response, that category of unlucky kids where, you know, they need help. But then the school is saying, no, they’re fine. They’re fine.
They’re fine. And so that’s when like kind of the gaslighting comes in of like, no, I can see they’re not fine or they’re coming home and they’re falling apart because they’ve been masking all day. They’re not fine.
Santanna: We’re having to sit for six hours to do one math worksheet after being at school all day.
Yeah, and sitting through all of that discomfort and whatever else has happened in the school day, because if you really think about like plan a and behaviorism in the schools, it really magnifies the kids who do have all of these challenges and barriers. You know, like the color system [00:19:00] within like kindergarten and first grade, you visually see which of your pair, your, your peers are having challenges.
They’re having those difficult days and they don’t understand that there’s barriers in the way. All they see is this visual reminder that they are different. And they are struggling. Yeah, they don’t get the stickers. They don’t get the rewards. They don’t get to go outside for extra time and recess because they’re being held as a consequence.
And nobody’s teaching them skills and nobody’s solving problems to help them actually be outside. And then that continues to reinforce our internal narrative of shame and I’m not good enough and I’m never going to be good enough. And it’s reinforced by the way in which that the school is handling their support.
Yeah.
Beth: Agreed. And, and I think that’s the perfect segue to kind of take your experience with CPS. And as, as part of your position, you go in and talk to IEP [00:20:00] teams. So how did you take CPS? and bring that into the schools.
Santanna: So I’ll tell you, you’re the one who has to do all the work. Um, the expectation of the school switching over their entire disciplinary strategies is unrealistic, especially for how in depth CPS can be.
And kind of like my long term hope, my dream, I guess you could say, is that by doing it in the way in which that I do, is that schools will catch on and be like, holy crap, this is what we need to be doing. I see the results in this student by working with this person in this way. So I will request a meeting for whoever We will meet with me.
I don’t care if it’s a phone call. I don’t care if I’ll [00:21:00] meet you after school. Um, do you want to meet with me via Zoom? I’ve met with an entire school team via Zoom before. And I’ll do what’s called an ALSEP. So within CPS, that stands for the assessment of lagging skills and unsolved problems. And this is meant to be a discussion.
There’s two parts. The first part, we kind of list lagging skills. And this comes with the lens change of like difficulty transitioning from XYZ to XYZ. And some of the thing is some of the language used in the ALSEP isn’t affirming, but I’ll still use it just for the purpose of I know that the people in the meeting aren’t on the same side that I am.
So it’s almost like a Trojan horse of just like, I will say this as much as it makes me uncomfortable. But I need you to get the buy in, right? Like, I need you to feel validated, so you’ll [00:22:00] listen to me. Yeah. So we’ll do that. And then the next piece is really understanding, um, what the unsolved problems are.
So I’ll go through the days. I’ll go from morning to night, from the beginning of class to the end of class. Just like, what are all the things that they’re having difficulty meeting? Like, what are your expectations? Like, what are you seeing in your classroom? Are they walking out? When are they walking out?
What class are they walking out? Because the important thing that it, that I know is really overwhelming because, um, I’m also doing a support, a neurodivergent affirming support group, um, for parents. And I’ve also trained my staff on this. And the, one of the really bigger things that’s hard to comprehend is how just to write an unsolved problem.
It needs to be as specific as possible. Your list will be long, especially if they’ve been having a very long time of [00:23:00] accumulating those unsolved problems. I’ve had lists of unsolved problems that’s been like two to three pages. Because it’s not just difficulty going to class. It’s difficulty going to math class, difficulty going to science, difficulty going to lunch, difficulty sitting in math class, difficulty sitting in science class.
Like, every single environment. is its own expectation. Because all the factors are different. All the barriers are different. The activity and the expectations are all different. You have to work really hard on making them as specific as possible. And that’s what I’ll guide school teams with whenever I’m like, I’m working on these, you know, in my sessions.
You know, at home, I need your perspective. Can you just give me your perspective? I’ll work on these with my client at home, and then I’ll deliver you the solutions that we’ve came up with. And then, you know, we can just work together that way.
Beth: so this is happening outside of an IEP meeting, right? [00:24:00] Okay, cool. I know you can’t, like, give probably too many specifics, but what have you seen with maybe receptiveness of teams when you’ve done this with them? It’s kind of
Santanna: like, um, I feel like a sigh of relief almost of just like there’s somebody here supporting me, they’re also listening like it’s not a battle.
They’re going to work with the student outside and they’re going to help me figure this out. I’ve seen a lot of that. Um, you know, I want to speak on how I use this affirmingly. So after that all set meeting, I’ll take that list on my own, and I’m going to review that list and see what those expectations are, first of all.
Because I don’t believe in using CPS as an alternative for behavior modification. Because if that expectation is not affirming or reasonable, I’m not [00:25:00] gonna use CPS to get my client to be compliant. Uh, okay. Like if you, like if the expectation is that my autistic client needs to sit in their chair, I am not using CPS to advocate for them to sit in their chair.
Yeah. Okay. I review those expectations and those unsolved problems and be like, okay, so like this cluster, these are not affirming and these are actually pretty harmful for my client, especially if there’s a trauma history, right? You know, within trauma, we have what’s called sensory memories. And those are our own body’s physiological reactions to outside stimuli that has been developed as unsafe. So if your kiddo is sitting in classroom and the window is open and there’s a cold breeze coming, and their nervous system has been wired to respond to a cold breeze as a [00:26:00] life threat, you can’t use CPS for that.
That is a complete bottom up process if they don’t have any conscious awareness. So those are other things that you need to take into consideration when you’re using the model of just like what, what are their personal factors here? is their trauma history? What, what is their neurotype? What, Is there learning disabilities?
Beth: Yeah, and the other one that comes to mind too is just the stimming factor of, Oh, expectations are hands in lap, that whole body listening thing, which hopefully people know we’re definitely not supposed to do anymore. Um, but again, if that’s the expectation that hands are in lap and eyes are on the teacher, like that’s.
That’s also not affirming,
Santanna: right? Nope. Um, so I do that. And that was one of my wins that I’ve been talking to you about was I had a meeting with the school. We wrote down all of the unsolved problems [00:27:00] and it was every single class, every single expectation, but they were all very similar. Okay. And I’m like, Okay.
Talking to my, my, my client about it. And it was just kind of like ping pong. I’m just like, no, this is actually really hard. And this is really hard. And this is really hard. And I’m like, I want to see what your IEP says, what accommodations are you even supposed to be having? And which I learned that the IEP was not attuned to what their needs were.
And that triggered a entire re evaluation and understanding of what their needs actually are because using Plan B and CPS for this specific kiddo was not going to get us any solutions because it was things that were beyond their understanding of what was going on.
Got it.
Beth: So through that evaluation process, then things were actually accurate on the other side of that.
Santanna: We’re getting there. Okay. But yeah. [00:28:00]
Beth: It always takes longer than we all want it to.
Santanna: Right? Especially whenever, like, you’re trying to get, like, other people to share a similar lens change as you are. Yeah.
And that’s, that is. I think the most difficult, whenever you are standing on like this side of the neurodiversity affirming paradigm, it’s just like, there are better ways people can you just listen to us? Yeah. And they’re not. And they’re defensive. And like, I understand, you know, they’re doing the best that they can with what they have.
But in those meetings, we’re not advocating for them, right? We’re advocating for our, for our kids, and for me, for my clients, like, We need to be on the same page. How do I get you to come over here with us?
Beth: well, and and I wonder I didn’t put this in our outline, so using your story is like an example. So you had this [00:29:00] meeting with the unsolved problems, realized that the IEP wasn’t supportive.
And then it takes a really long time to go through that evaluation process and get it fixed. Right. So. In the meantime, like while this evaluation is happening and you know, you still don’t have like a great plan to support them. So are there still behaviors that are happening? And so what is the plan like in the meantime?
Are they participating in, in plan C and letting go of those expectations or how is that being managed right
Santanna: now? I kind of plan C, plan seeing,
I explain what plan C is to the school. I, you know, whenever they come to me and, you know, in distress of just like, we’re still seeing this behavior. And I’m like, Yeah, I know. We’re still trying to figure out solutions for that. The expectation is still there. They don’t have the skills to meet that expectation.
So like, I’m not surprised. [00:30:00] It’s not gonna change. Until we get these other things figured out. But trying to get… You know, even within my work within some parents, like it’s really hard for some parents to digress the plan C. So whenever it’s brought back up of just like this happened and I’m like, it’s an unsolved problem.
It is on our to be solved list. They don’t have the skills we haven’t solved that yet. So of course that behavior is going to continue to happen. You just have to be able to expect it because it’s all predictable. Once you write that list of unsolved problems. A lot of the behaviors are extremely predictable.
And that’s where the proactive piece comes in because you’re also proactively not expecting them to meet that you can still state the expectation so you can still be like, you know, if you’re a math teacher, here’s your math worksheet. But if they [00:31:00] don’t do the math worksheet, you’re not saying hey you need to do the math worksheet.
Hey, if you don’t do your math worksheet, you’re not going to go outside for recess. Yeah, you can just give it the worksheet and then you just walk away and if they do it, they do it. That’s great. If they don’t, that’s also fine because you haven’t gotten there yet because that’s the other thing with the stabilization and predictability and proactive aspect is that you are choosing.
So like, this is where it gets a little bit tricky because green talks about focusing on the unsolved problems that. you know, have safety concerns first, right? Like we’re just trying to get to the point of stabilization. Now this is where my disclaimer comes in because there’s another CPS. Um, I don’t even remember.
It’s like collaborative problem solving. Collaborative problem solving has Dr. [00:32:00] Bruce Perry on their team. And Dr. Bruce Perry is one of the leading child psychologists Um, talks about developmental trauma. He came up with the neuro sequential model of engagement in our nervous system and CPS actually follows the principles of neuroplasticity.
The three ingredients of Plan B is we have the Empathy Step, the Define Adult Concerns Step, and the Invitation Step. Those three steps, in sequence, follow Bruce Perry’s Neurosequential Model for the three rules to engagement, which is regulate, relate, and then reason. We regulate our nervous system.
Whenever we are relating, that is our limbic system coming online, and then whenever we reason, that is our cortex, that, that is our logical thinking. So in the moment, or even if you’re just trying to, you know, talk about an unsolved problem, if you don’t follow those three things, your kid’s not going to have access to their [00:33:00] cortex.
And in order to follow the rules of neuroplasticity, you have to have a right dose for their nervous system, and a predictable and patterned, repetitive sequence for new neural pathways to grow. And that’s another thing that CPS kind of helps with, you know, we have like social skills classes, we have direct, you know, skills teaching.
And what happens, we don’t see that transfer of skills from environment to environment. Yeah, because one of the key things for neuroplasticity is in order to change your neural network, that specific neural network has to be activated. And you’re doing that with CPS, even if you’re not in that environment.
But if you’re talking about that specific unsolved problem, that neural network is activated. And now you are helping promote sustainable change.
Beth: Yeah. So it’s something that solves the problem, but [00:34:00] also builds the skills at the same time. Yes. Yeah. Super cool.
is there anything else that you want to share as like examples of how you’ve brought CPS in to the schools or how you’ve used it in the schools?
Santanna: Yeah. Um, so you start out with the all set. You get those lists of unsolved problems, you use the plan B conversation to understand the kid’s concern, and you come up with those mutually satisfactory solutions, and those solutions are going to give you the accommodations of what to advocate for in the IEP.
Beautiful. And that’s what I bring into the IEP process of just like this was the unsolved problem. This was the expectation. This is what you worked on during the year. Here’s the evidence that this worked. Now let’s get that in the IEP because I’m not going to be here forever. Yeah. And the teachers aren’t gonna, you know, know that this worked for them last [00:35:00] year either.
And that could also help with goals too, depending on what the kid’s concern are. Um, you know, you can help facilitate which goals to work on or advocate against some goals of just like, no, this is actually like, it’s more around executive function and your focus on behavior. So can we have an executive functioning goal in replace of your behavior goal, please?
That would be more attuned to what they need.
Beth: Yeah, I love that example because I like behavior. Yes, I think schools use behavioral goals because they are measurable, but then we’re not actually teaching any skills like that. That means nothing. And then, you know, the
Santanna: FBAs. I had a client who’s FBA was like, sleeping is for attention.
Please tell me what attention do you get when you’re sleeping. Yeah, none. But when are they sleeping? What is the expectation that was happening before they were [00:36:00] sleeping? And that’s going to give you what the goal needs to be for. Are they sleeping in math class? Are they having difficulty in math class because they’re overwhelmed?
Did you talk to them to figure that out? Maybe they have a learning disability in math that nobody’s caught until now because you think sleeping is attention seeking when they’re actually they’re overwhelmed to a point that their body has completely shut them down. Yeah, and you wouldn’t figure that out unless you use CPS.
Or a variation of an understanding of CPS.
Beth: Agreed. Oh that’s such a good example. Okay. Do you have anything else or do you want me to wrap up?
Santanna: Um, I suppose, like, are there any questions that you have on your journey of learning CPS that maybe other people have that I could answer?
Absolutely. So,
Beth: I mean, I think the, the hardest thing, and I see this in the, the B team Facebook group that’s run by lives in the balance too, but [00:37:00] you know, I’m, I’m helping, I take still some clients on the side, you know, personally. And so I see them in the home environment. And so one recently we started using CPS and defining that problem I think is the hardest step.
Because people will like refer to the behavior. So I can give an example. So one of the concerns was like throwing rocks at windows and it’s like, Oh, okay. So that’s, uh, that’s the, you know, expectation is that you don’t throw rocks at windows. Um, and really their concern was like the behavior after they got in trouble for throwing rocks at windows.
And so, you know, going through that process of like, okay, so you see a behavior, like how do you think about. What’s underneath that behavior? And I think that’s the hardest part. And I had to seriously think about it for like 10 minutes. And I’m like, Oh, I think you like backup. You have to back up like what happened before that.
Right? [00:38:00] So, yeah. If the IEP team is sitting there and saying. They’re doing this, they’re walking out, they’re, you know, being loud in the hallway, they’re doing this, this, this. Like, how do you even start with guiding this team that you’re probably intimidated by anyway? How do you back them up and lead that conversation in how to actually figure out what’s happening in the classroom?
Santanna: So, I use the plan B. Reflective listening process and questions to get their what their concerns are. So, within plan B, um, 1 of the strategies is breaking the expectation down to its component parts. So, I just start from beginning to end. Whenever I’m doing plan B with the kid, but whenever I’m in those meetings, I’ll start from the behavior and just back it up.
Okay, so you said that they fell asleep in class. What class is it? Math class. When is math [00:39:00] class? Is it in the morning? Is it in the afternoon? Okay, so. We have math class, morning math class. What was happening when they fell asleep? Were they taking a test? Were you teaching? Were they doing a worksheet? And really just dragging them up the river all the way back.
Whenever I do all set meetings with schools I don’t ask them to tell me what the challenging behavior was, or I don’t ask them to not tell me. I ask what is What, what are you seeing? And then I’ll just guide that conversation to what the unsolved problem actually is.
And don’t expect them to meet that. I just guide them there.
You know, and like with your example, I’m also just thinking of, you know, from a sensory perspective, like, most of my clients are also autistic. So I’m just like, What happened before that? Did they get the [00:40:00] sensory need that they needed before? What was the expectation? What was their environment? Um, The non profit that I am a part of, Elizabeth Duffy, created this four areas to support, modify, and adapt, which you look at the environment, the activity, personal factors, and the expectation.
So I’ll also ask those questions. When I’m trying to figure out what the unsolved problem is, where were they, what was happening around them, and then try to really piece together of how I’m going to present this to the child in a way that they’re really going to talk to you. And then I have one more
Beth: question. So, you mentioned along the way that. IEP teams get defensive, and I think that that is probably one of the biggest themes that I’ve seen shut down. Advocacy is when the school team gets defensive [00:41:00] for one reason or the other. And I will tell you some case managers are very much more sensitive than others, right?
So it’s like, it’s not all up to you. Like they’re, They shouldn’t be defensive. But have you seen using the CPS principles in approaching the school IEP team prevent them from being defensive in some
Santanna: ways? Yep, I have most definitely had situations where I have applied the strategies of CPS to de escalate IEP meetings.
Um, so the third ingredient of the plan B is the invitation step. And how I use CPS is I summarize both of the kids concerns and the adults concerns before we get into the solutions. So in those very [00:42:00] exciting IEP meetings, I will just interject and be like, Alright, so this is what I’m hearing the school’s concern is.
Did I summarize this correctly? Sweet. Parents, is this, I’m going to, and then I try to summarize the parents concerns, and then I try to bring them together using the CPS model in that way, and just kind of also continuing to ask, like, questions from both sides to get both of their summaries, and then try to direct towards a solution.
And I’ve done that a couple of times.
Beth: Can you see parents being able to do that for themselves in the school IEP team without an additional person there? Or do you think that would be
Santanna: hard? Um, the difficulty with me providing that answer is the cases that I get are this middle area. So our CTSS program is one step below residential [00:43:00] and one step above outpatient.
So by the time that kids get on our waitlist and get our services, like there’s been a very long build up of challenging behavior. So I feel like if the parent is confident kind of going into those meetings. Has some of that practice and like doing some of this. Um, and hasn’t had such a long challenging journey as most of the families that I get, then yes, absolutely.
And I’ve had some parents who’s been able to do that too. So like, I’m not discrediting anybody that I’ve worked with, but, um, Just my experience, I’m working with more complicated emotions are way more heightened because they’ve been battling and trying to like get schools to listen to them for way longer than they should have
Beth: been.
Yeah. Yeah. That totally helps to have some context of that too. That’s amazing. Well, thank you so much Santana for coming on the [00:44:00] podcast. I’m so excited that we got to chat about this and, and get into the CPS model and how you’ve brought that into schools and to help your clients. Um, Transcribed I’m wondering if parents have questions for you, or if somebody wants you to come speak to a group of people or access services, like where would they go to connect with you?
Yeah. Um, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. I’m so excited to, oh my gosh, this is just so great to have your perspective of the CPS model and how you’ve brought that into schools and your work too. So I’m guessing that parents might have some questions for you or maybe people are wanting you to come speak at their organization or are interested in the nonprofit that you work for.
So how would they get into contact with you if they wanted to ask you some questions?
Santanna: Absolutely. So, um, they can get a contact with me through Minnesota NEAT. Um, you will have that [00:45:00] link to our website in the show notes. We will also have my personal email if you just want to directly contact me as well.
Um, and to give you a little bit of information on Minnesota NEAT, we focus on supporting meaningful inclusion of neurodivergent people across the lifespan into the worlds of their choosing. And really, for educational settings, this might include things like environmental assessments, you know, will physically walk through the space to identify sensory input and access services in place, help assess potential barriers to learning and staying regulated, recommending supports.
We also do. Neurodivergent affirming and evidence based training for educational staff that combines both are professional and lived experiences. We actually have a proposal right now for an educational conference here in Minnesota. Combining, um, well, hopefully our goal is that we can combine the presentation I did for my company of supporting disabled kids paired [00:46:00] with Elizabeth’s four areas to support, modify and adapt and integrate that together is, is what we’re hoping.
That
Beth: sounds amazing. Ah, I love it. Okay, cool. Um, so yeah, like you said, we’ll have all of that linked up in the show notes. And then just thank you so much. I so appreciate your time. Thank
Santanna: you.
Samson Q2U Microphone-1: We packed a lot into that episode, so I hope you got a ton from it, and just let us know if you have any questions by popping into the Facebook group. The link to join the Facebook group is at theieplab. com slash podcast, or it’s also in the link below this podcast in your podcast player.
I also shared an email last week, and if you aren’t on the IEP Lab email, you can just download any of the freebies on the website, and you will be added to the email list. I try not to send out too many emails. It’s like once a week to kind of tell you what the podcast episode is about, but also when there are special things going on, of course I will send out more.
But in that email from last week, I shared what is coming for the fall because we [00:47:00] are in total back to school mode around here at the IEP lab. So I also wanted to kind of mention it in case you didn’t see that email on what’s coming up. So we are ramping up for the school year. So in August, we are relaunching the ultimate parent IEP prep course.
This only happens twice a year, and I’m so excited. This, I think this is the fifth or sixth time that we’ve ran the ultimate parent IEP prep course, and I’m so excited. Just remember that if you are a prep course alumni, if you’ve gone through the supported version of the course before,
Last spring, I actually changed it and I opened up the office hours for anybody who’s gone through the supported version before you can join the office hours again. So if you are an alumni, you will get an email that says opt into the office hours reminder emails. And so if you.
Don’t want to be bugged with the emails. You just don’t click the link, but if you want to join us again for office hours, then you can just click that link again. So, uh, just have that on your radar. If you haven’t heard about the prep course, that [00:48:00] information is coming. You will see a lot of information about that when it comes to August.
And then we’re also launching a new freebie in September. We’ll probably do a little fun challenge or something to join the membership if you’re interested in that and let you know about that as well. And then in October, I’m really excited because we are doing a second summit by the IEP Lab.
Last year we did the first annual online summit. It was amazing. We’ve had over 1, 800 people through that summit, which is just incredible. I’m so excited that so many people got that information. It is so jam packed in those summits. It’s amazing. We had 19 speakers last year and we’re working on getting, um, everybody lined out for this coming summit, but it’s going to be focused specifically on accommodation.
So, um, you know, we’re going to have sessions on, Hey. You know, executive functioning things. We’re going to break them down and, um, really have some really solid suggestions for every [00:49:00] challenge that you might have on the list that your child is going through. So it’s going to be really, really fun. And I’m so excited to bring that to you again.
So this fall is going to be jam packed with a lot of things. labs and make sure that you’re on the IEP labs. Email list by downloading any of the freebies. If you go to my website, there’s actually a pop up for one of the freebies. So you don’t even have to click anything. You just have to go to my website, the IEP lab.
com and just click around and see what’s on there. And it’ll pop up and ask you if you want to join the email list, or you can just follow me on Instagram or Facebook at the IEP lab. I’m on Instagram a little bit more. I do reels over there. Um, but everything that I post to Instagram also goes to Facebook.
So just know that all of the launch information, all of the joining, all of the bonuses for joining that kind of thing will be announced on the socials as well. So thank you so much for listening and please let me know if you have any questions by joining in the Facebook group or hitting me up in Instagram or [00:50:00] Facebook and I will see you same time, same place next week.
Thanks so much.