E82: Tier 2 Support: MTSS/RTI/SST with Sabrina Axt
Multitiered Systems of Support (but called MANY other similar names) is a system outside of the special education system that provides targeted support to children. But why are we talking about it on an IEP podcast??? Because...
Multitiered Systems of Support (but called MANY other similar names) is a system outside of the special education system that provides targeted support to children.
But why are we talking about it on an IEP podcast???
Because…
1) You may be a parent trying to get your child an IEP but are getting pushed towards the MTSS system first (this can be good or bad!)
2) You may be seeing a need your child has that isn’t covered by their IEP currently…and they may want to provide support for THIS need through MTSS process first.
Connect with Special Education Attorney Sabrina Axt: https://www.axtlegal.com/
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Unknown Speaker 00:00
Are you ready for some acronyms today because today we are talking about the MTSS RTI, an SS T process, which is the general education process that identifies needs in children and sometimes is used to filter out and determine if a child needs testing and special education. Now, before you’re like, Beth, my child already has an IEP, why do I need to know this? It is important for you to know because as your child learns and grows, sometimes a need that hasn’t already been addressed in your child’s IEP might come up. And the team might say, Oh, well, they need to run through the MTSS process first before we test for that, and we’re going to talk about that, because it’s pretty controversial. Now, I also know that some parents listening to this podcast don’t quite have an IEP yet. And so you also might be trying to get an IEP for your kid. But the school is saying, Oh, they have to go through this MTSS process first before we can test which we are also going to address and today helping me break this down is my guest, Sabrina Axt who is a special education attorney, and also a parent with a child with a disability. So stay tuned for the definitions of the acronyms I just threw at you. And also expect some clarity around this process, and what you need to know to navigate it to help your child get the support that they need from the school.
Unknown Speaker 01:23
You are listening to the parent IEP lab, the podcast that helps you get an effective IEP for your child so that you can get them supported and learning in school. I’m Beth Liesenfeld, occupational therapist who started to notice trends in parents who got effective IEPs for their kids. My mission is to help you turn insider knowledge from the school side into effective parent advocacy for your child. And we will also identify some barriers to you being able to effectively advocate and help you with overcoming those as well. The parent IEP lab is all about the long game and realizing that while the IEP is incredibly important, you have so much power outside of that IEP meeting to make a good IEP Great. So let’s dive in and think about what we can change and tweak to get the right formula for success for your child to learn and grow at school. Welcome to the lab.
Unknown Speaker 02:15
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Unknown Speaker 03:25
Welcome to the podcast. I’m so excited to have Sabrina on and we are going to talk about different levels of support within the school system. Sabrina, I’m so excited to have you here. Will you just start by introducing yourself and your expertise. And we’ll go from there. All right, I’m so glad to be here. Thank you for having me. My name is Sabrina AXT. I am a special education attorney in the San Francisco Bay Area, and mother to a child with dyslexia and ADHD. So I am practicing my passion. Fantastic. And you know, I have followed your Instagram page. And we’ll we’ll put a little plug for that in the end of the episode. But that’s how we met and I have learned so much from your posts and just you’re explaining the processes. So I think the parents listening to this podcast, you know, are in the first couple of years just trying to get their bearings of the IEP process. So I’m excited to talk to you about this today. So, you know, before we jump into like what this process is, there’s a lot of acronyms. So when we talk about SS T, can you go through kind of definition of terms for us like what is SS T and then we’ll jump into the other acronyms that are very similar to this as well. Well, when I say SS T, I’m talking about a student study team. Sometimes different states call them different things. But in essence, it’s a group formed within the school to examine a student’s progress. A teacher might refer
Unknown Speaker 05:00
or to the team. It might be a parent who saying, You know what? something’s not quite right. But it’s basically a group of from the school and the parents get together and talk about the student struggles and hopefully come up with a plan to help support the student. Absolutely. You know, of course, if a child doesn’t have an IEP yet, but we chatted a little bit before we hit record to that, if they are getting services on an IEP for, say math, and they’re starting to struggle in another area. This is a system that they might encounter as the parent for something that’s not supported an IEP, is that correct? Yeah, generally, I see the student study team process used before an evaluation for special education or before a student obtains an IEP. Okay, fantastic. There’s a couple other acronyms that are used kind of interchangeably. Will you take us through some of those acronyms and what they mean?
Unknown Speaker 05:59
Well, so one of them is the Multi Tiered System of Supports MTS s. And the way I think of that is, there’s different levels of support. There’s the general education curriculum, then there’s something in between, which is generally called Response to Intervention, RTI, and that’s where we give a little bit extra help to students that are struggling, but they’re not quite at the level of having a learning disability at the moment, or at least they haven’t been identified as having a learning disability. And then at that point, the other level is actual special education interventions and getting an IEP. Okay, so there’s SST if you’re talking about the team, yeah. And then there’s MTSS. And then are essentially, yes. The Multi Tiered System of Supports is the overall framework that there are different levels of supports RTI being that middle level Response to Intervention, and the SS T or whatever your state calls that process. Really is RTI. Okay, fantastic. So can you give us? Yes. So if you are looking at an SST, who is on that SS T, who’s on that team, actually a lot of people, and it’s actually a lot of the same people from an IEP team, you have the classroom teacher, if there’s any other supports that are being provided school administration, the parents, you know, things like that. It’s, it’s really anybody who works with the student, they all come together and talk about what they’ve seen some of the students challenges and see if they can come up with a plan to better support the student. And how does somebody get recommended for this team?
Unknown Speaker 07:57
Well, the parents can either ask for an SST, or one of the providers from the school, typically, it’s the classroom teacher, who notices the student is kind of struggling, and not quite keeping up, just say, for example, and reading, just not catching on quite as quick as the rest of the class. And so they have a little bit of a concern, let’s get together, let’s talk about it with the parents and see if we can come up with a plan to better support the student. It’s more than just a parent teacher conference. But it doesn’t necessarily involve anybody at the district level. It’s the school level school site level. So what I have seen is that when a parent requests an evaluation for special education, sometimes this team gets brought up as something that they have to go through first, in order to maybe possibly get to special education testing later. So can you kind of walk us through why a school would say that if they legally have to do that, kind of give us some context for that situation? Sure. So the concept of RTI, it can be really helpful, particularly in theory, if it’s applied correctly, it is supposed to help with over identification of students for special education that maybe don’t need it. It is supposed to help reduce over identification of minority students for special education. In practice, however, I do see it often misused like you mentioned, a lot of times parents will be concerned that their child has a learning disability. They’ll go to the school and they will ask for testing. And they’re told oh we have to go through the SST process or the RTI process first.
Unknown Speaker 09:55
That is false. It is very clear federal
Unknown Speaker 10:00
law does not require the use of RTI before conducting an evaluation. And actually, there is actual federal guidance on that there is an OSAP memo. So that’s the US Department of Special Education Programs OSEP, they actually issued a memo to states specifically clarifying that RTI can not be used to delay or deny an evaluation for special education. So when a school tells you, we have to try this first, then we’ll decide if we’re going to conduct an evaluation. That is false. Okay, that totally makes sense. And there is something with specific learning disabilities where they have to provide some sort of intervention and take data is that before they start the testing process, or can that be at the same time, it can be at the same time. So you know, anyone who has gone through the process knows, there’s a lot of waiting, and everything in special education has its own timeframe. But we also know that the sooner you get intervention, the better the remediation, right? So time is not on our side. So the thing with RTI, I always advise parents to request the evaluation when the school comes back and says, Let’s have an SST meeting or let’s try RTI.
Unknown Speaker 11:31
I think that’s a great idea.
Unknown Speaker 11:34
But not in lieu of doing the actual evaluation. We because they have 60 days to get that evaluation done, right? That’s two months. And then if you’re over a school break, or holiday break, or something like that, it can take even longer. So I say, let’s keep the timeline rolling. I have still asked for my evaluation. I am not consenting to delaying that timeline. But if we want to have a student study team meeting, in the meantime, to discuss supports that we can do in the meantime. Absolutely. But it shouldn’t be used as a means of delaying or denying the evaluation itself. And do you have a sense of how long they need to gather data for before they can be in an IEP? Under SLD? Well, typically, at least where I am in California, it’s all a part of the evaluation process itself. And you know, honestly, because you have that time lag between requesting the evaluation and actually doing the evaluation and reviewing it, I think it would be helpful to have that data from the RTI process. That would be very helpful, but I don’t think it’s essential. I have seen the evaluation process, it’s it’s done through the academic testing, there’s observation involves teacher input. So all the data that you need from the evaluation, it’s there, whether you do the SST or not. But it can be helpful to have additional data, you know, you can never go wrong with too much data. Right, right.
Unknown Speaker 13:21
Do you have any advice for a parent that’s maybe been put like, maybe this has already happened to them, and they’re in this SST process? And they keep getting kind of waylaid and said, Oh, like, let’s wait and see. Let’s wait and see what is like your guidance as far as like, how can they get this done? How can they advocate most effectively to get an actual evaluation? Sure. You don’t want to get stuck in RTI, Purgatory. And I’ve seen it happen, you know, once you go to RTI, it’s like, your child gets stuck there, because nobody wants to evaluate. And I think if you’re in that situation, you need to just put your foot down, you need to be very clear in writing. I am requesting an evaluation for special education eligibility. My concerns are XYZ. I look forward to receiving an assessment plan within 15 days
Unknown Speaker 14:25
period. Love that. Okay. Can we explain, you know, when we say, RTI, can we talk about what kind of services are involved in this because this is one kind of situation where they don’t necessarily have an IEP, but they are getting different services. So, can we talk about what actually is RTI like on a day to day level? So RTI really could be anything, it just depends on what the student’s needs are. Could be additional behavioral supports. A lot of times I see it with
Unknown Speaker 15:00
regard to reading instruction and reading intervention. And, you know, it focuses on the needs of the student, typically smaller group instruction. It’s kind of the middle ground between gen ed and special ed. And its purpose is to identify struggling learners who maybe don’t have disabilities, because just because a student is struggling to read, for example, doesn’t automatically mean they have dyslexia. There might be other issues going on, that they just need a little extra help. And that is the purpose of RtI is to kind of figure that out, is it one of those students that just needs a little extra support, or as you know, a so called Late Bloomer, or is the student one with a learning disability that really needs to be evaluated. So it really can be anything, it can be a lot of accommodations, extra time, behavioral supports, reinforcement strategies, the remedial reading program, for example, things like that. So the other role of RtI is it can actually be used as an alternative to the discrepancy model for qualifying for an IEP qualifying for special education. And there are multiple ways to qualify for special education, right. One of those is the discrepancy model, we see that a lot a discrepancy between abilities and actual performance. But one of the other alternative means of qualifying is the use of RTI and, you know, really failure to make progress with that model. That can be another way of qualifying. And sometimes it can be more equitable that way, each of the qualifying models kind of have their strengths and weaknesses. So that’s why it’s important to have more than one way to qualify for special education, and RTI is one of them.
Unknown Speaker 17:09
Fantastic, can you tell us just what the discrepancy model is really quick. The discrepancy model, honestly, is what I mostly see used for special education eligibility. And what it is, is you’re looking for a significant discrepancy between a child’s abilities and potential versus actual performance. So if a student
Unknown Speaker 17:39
is actually very intelligent, has a lot of these skills are very smart, but they’re really underperforming, where we would expect them to be in a particular area such as reading or math or, you know, any other type of skill, then there would be is there a significant enough discrepancy to qualify for learning disability?
Unknown Speaker 18:04
Okay, and so you’re saying that RTI is is an alternative to that system? Yes. Yes. And can you explain that just a little bit more? Yeah. So usually, with the discrepancy model, typically, what you’re doing is you’re doing IQ testing, really, you know, you’re doing an IQ test, and then testing them for their actual skills. And is there a difference with some students, you know, IQ testing is not the most accurate way of showing whether there’s a significant discrepancy, it can be helpful for students that are like to E, twice exceptional, it is possible to be gifted and also have a learning disability. But then there, there are other ways of qualifying, you know, if you actually implement RTI appropriately, and you’re getting that extra time, you’re using an evidence based curriculum, and it’s still not working,
Unknown Speaker 19:04
then it’s like, well, wait a minute, there might be something else going on, and then you should look at testing. So it’s another way to qualify, like, we’ve tried these other interventions. That didn’t work. So now we need to take it to the next level.
Unknown Speaker 19:21
Mm hmm. That makes total sense. Okay. Yeah. And don’t you know, that’s, that’s a little known fact, a lot of parents don’t realize that because most schools just use the discrepancy model, but particularly if you have gone through the RTI process, keep that in mind that failure to respond to these other interventions, that actually is a means of qualifying for special education to so if you have gone through the RTI process, you haven’t seen progress or you’ve actually seen regression, and then your student gets evaluated for
Unknown Speaker 20:00
or special education eligibility? And they say, oh, there’s not a big enough discrepancy. Well, wait a minute, you guys did RTI, let’s look at that data. That’s another way of qualifying.
Unknown Speaker 20:15
Yep. Because it just adds, it adds more data to the body of evidence. And even though there are guidelines state to state where they look at certain percentiles, for that specific learning disability, they’re still supposed to look at a whole body of evidence. So that RTI is fantastic data to add to that, that’s a really good point, it is. And that’s why there’s really no harm in going through the RTI process. But it shouldn’t be used to delay testing, I highly recommend doing both at the same time, because you can get that additional data. So when you’re talking about like, there’s accommodations in place, there’s kind of a learning plan. Do you know if there’s any kind of documented plan when they go through this SST process? Typically, there is typically each school has some sort of a form that they fill out, you know, what are our concerns? What are the strengths? What things have we tried? What do we think is effective, and then eventually, you get to the part of, well, let’s put together a plan that we think might better support the student. And it’s not a real formal document. It’s not like an IEP, for example, or even a 504 plan. But it is written down, and it should be written down. Because how else are you going to remember, I mean, these poor teachers have so many kids in their class, if it’s not written down, they’re never going to remember. So there is some sort of a document that is produced, it might be hand written. But yeah, you need to come up with something in writing, so that everybody is all on the same page. Right? And, you know, sometimes, it may involve supporting the student at school, and also supporting the student at home. You know, parents have involvement too, and how can we work together with the school to fully support the student both at school and at home, because the those skills that the student is lacking, they might be the same during school and at home, they might be slightly different. But you know, you’re always better off supporting the student as a whole, both at school and at home. So, you know, there it should be written down, and you know, who, who’s going to implement each of the items that they’re talking about? What part of the plan? Who’s going to do it? You know, for example, again, I go back to the remedial reading program, who is that person? You know, is it the librarian? Is it you know, just small groups, as you mentioned in the classroom? Is there a specific person that does that? And you know, what are their qualifications? Just Just so that everybody knows, you know, what’s happening?
Unknown Speaker 23:12
You know, parents need to be actively involved in the process and know who is administering this intervention and what it looks like? So absolutely, you should ask questions about that. Absolutely. Get it down on paper. Yes, yes. The other thing I wanted to ask you, when would a parent know if this SST process isn’t working, you know, the SST process is actually really informal. And the whole purpose of it is to gather that data. Right? So parents need to be vigilant about getting that data. And having that clear communication, you want to see, are we making progress? Is the student actually making progress with these interventions? Would you expect to see more? Or are they actually regressing, and that is all data driven. So again, if somebody is taking data, parents need to be actively involved in obtaining that data as well so that they can see. And when you have a student study team, you know, you have your initial meeting, it doesn’t stop there. There’s let’s try this intervention. Let’s take data, see if it works. We’ll come back and we’ll discuss it again. So you should have that open dialogue. It should be an ongoing process of data collection, and then we come back and review it and talk about it. But yeah, if you’re seeing regression or you’re not seeing improvement or very little improvement, that’s an indication that maybe you want to take it a step further and get testing or try something different. But again,
Unknown Speaker 25:00
Don’t get stuck in RTI, Purgatory.
Unknown Speaker 25:05
Perfect. I love that answer. I think, you know, when we were in team meetings, especially in the spring, I feel like a lot of kids get referred to this process kind of towards the beginning of the year, or like, after a couple of months, when the general education teachers get to know the kids, and then they start in the system. And then what happens is, there’s so many weeks that they watch the data for. And so all of a sudden, it comes to a point in the spring where they’re like, Okay, this isn’t working, we need to test. And so from a special education perspective, we have a batch of kids that were going through all at the same time, because they were referred to the MTS s process at the same time. So there’s kind of two IEP seasons, and the one is like, at the beginning of the year, when, you know, you have traditionally the kids who came in through early intervention, that, you know, at the beginning of the year, they needed an IEP, so it got done the beginning of the year, because it’s calendar year, and then you have the second batch, it’s in the spring, because they’ve gone through this MTS process, and they’re referring, but it’s interesting to sit through a team meeting and the special education teacher will be like, Oh, yep, they’ve been in MTSS. For two or three years, we really need to test them, like it’s time, but two or three years is a really long time to wait before testing. So it happens all the time. And they’re looking for that they’re looking for, oh, yep, it’s been a couple years, they’re still not making progress. Let’s test when the parents could have sped that up a little bit. Yes, yeah. And that’s the thing. If I were a parent, I would never ever, ever let that go on for two to three years. You know, there’s nothing wrong with starting the SST process collecting some data, let’s see if we see improvement. But it cannot go on indefinitely. Because with learning disabilities, in particular, the earlier you get intervention, the better off you will be, because your brain eventually stops it forming, you know, you stop that process. And so you have this narrow window of time.
Unknown Speaker 27:16
That is the best time for that intervention. And if you’re delaying to three years, you’ve just lost two to three years. And now you only have maybe one or two years left, what you know how much better off with your student have been if you would have gotten that intervention from day one,
Unknown Speaker 27:36
and had a full four years. So you know, it’s fine to take data, but just be aware, you can’t sit there and RTI purgatory forever. And, you know, a few months worth of data, that should be sufficient. Honestly, as a parent, you know that other people might disagree, but it’s so important to get that testing done. And I always tell parents, like if your parent gut if your mom gut is telling you that something is going on, you need to demand testing no matter what, because you’re probably right. Yeah, I agree. Is there anything else that you really want parents to know about this process? Before we wrap up, I would just say the SST
Unknown Speaker 28:31
is a great tool to use if you’re not concerned about learning disabilities. And it’s it’s something that is very useful, maybe in kindergarten, first grade. Beyond that, I feel very strongly that parents need to demand testing, even if just to rule out learning disabilities, because
Unknown Speaker 28:58
it’s so crucial to get that early intervention. If there’s a learning disability present, you just don’t have years to go through the RTI process. And I don’t think that the RTI process was ever designed to be implemented over several years. I think it’s meant to, you know, really weed out the students that just need a little extra help from those that may have learning disabilities and separate those two, and get them the individual helps that they need. It’s really a separation tool, identification tool. It’s not meant to go on indefinitely. I love how you said that. I know that parents are going to want to connect with you. So thank you so much for coming on the show. But if parents want to connect with you even talk about working with you, if they are in California, where would they go to do that? So my website is the best way to get in contact with me. And my website is www dot AXT legal.com
Unknown Speaker 30:00
Oh 8x TLEGAL And I’m also on all the major social media platforms at x legal on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, I think, you know, LinkedIn, all all those places you can, you can find me everywhere.
Unknown Speaker 30:18
Perfect. So just search you out. Phil, thank you so much for coming on and sharing your expertise. I really appreciate it. Yeah, thank you so much for having me, this has been a lot of fun.
Unknown Speaker 30:29
Thank you so much for tuning in today and learning about the MTSS process. Also SSD, also RTI. And hopefully, you have a little bit more clarity over what those systems mean, what those acronyms mean. And then also, if that comes up in the school, you are going to be prepared, right, you have a little bit of context about those systems. And you have a little idea of what your rights are around to this process as well, it can be a very, very good process, I’ve seen it work really well for kids. And then I’ve also seen this process kind of used to delay doing an evaluation too. So you know, it just depends on your situation. If you need any help, like if your child is in MTSS, if you are trying to request an evaluation, or if you think that MTSS has been really helpful to you, and you want to share that with other parents, go ahead and join us in the Facebook group, you can go to the IEP lab.com/podcast. And there’s a little button there that says join the Facebook group. So you can join us in that group. Feel free to make your own post when you come in. Let us know any questions or any resources you’re looking for. And we will jump in to help you as well. Also, just another quick reminder that the links to enter the giveaway by doing a review of the podcast are below this podcast in your podcast player. So don’t forget about the amazing prizes. Everybody who submits is getting the accommodations 101 guide, you can find that nowhere else on my website right now. So you get the accommodations, one on one guide. And then also we’re doing a huge giveaway with those IEP 101 workbooks and also the decoding IEP data workshop and, of course, my signature course the ultimate parent IEP prep course. So thank you so much for joining me and I will see you on the next one. Have a great week.